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Old 01-10-2006, 12:01 PM   #16
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Originally posted by Calluna
Why just visit a saint when you could actually become one?
Visiting that state artificially and prematurely can be very destructive. Most people lose their balance and sometimes their minds. That's also the problem with kundalini yoga. I don't know any longterm practicioners of kundalini yoga who aren't a little crazy. As my spiritual teacher says, "slow and steady wins the race."
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Old 01-10-2006, 12:49 PM   #17
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I think that's pretty subjective to equate the two. Because they are described using similar language does not make them the same.

What I'd be interested in seeing is some kind of scientific experiment on brain chemistry in these experiences.


I'm not sure we can chemically achieve a true spiritual experience.
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:51 PM   #18
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Originally posted by nbcrusader




I'm not sure we can chemically achieve a true spiritual experience.


by definition, can a spiritual experience be indisputably true?

how do we measure these things beyond the word of the person who experiences it?

i doubt anyone has the same experience at a U2 show that i do -- perhaps some have better experiences, others not quite as heightened, but at the end of the day, you only have my word to go on.

i suppose i doubt anyone's ability to point to what is a "true" experience and what is "less than true," or to say that some contact with that sense of otherness through, say, Zen Meditation is less authentic than contact via drugs.
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:52 PM   #19
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Originally posted by stammer476

What I'd be interested in seeing is some kind of scientific experiment on brain chemistry in these experiences.


me too. would be very interesting.
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Old 01-10-2006, 01:55 PM   #20
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No, why? First, I don´t know what feeling he is talking about. I only notice similarities. Second, if it is the same feeling, it does not depend on how that feeling is triggered. If you want to use LSD to get in touch with a "higher" existence, if you use meditation, or if you use no conscious way at all - the ways are different, but that does not make the feeling less authentic.


so if there are many different paths -- meditation, prayer, drugs -- to this feeling of connectedness and otherness, does this then negate the possibility of one kind of authentic spiritual experience? it doesn't matter how you get there just so long as you arrive? what, then, might this say about distinctions made between both different religions, different meditative practices, and even different drugs, if they are all leading to the same endpoint? are such distinctions ultimately moot? or are they still important? and if so, how?
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:00 PM   #21
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so if there are many different paths -- meditation, prayer, drugs -- to this feeling of connectedness and otherness, does this then negate the possibility of one kind of authentic spiritual experience? it doesn't matter how you get there just so long as you arrive? what, then, might this say about distinctions made between both different religions, different meditative practices, and even different drugs, if they are all leading to the same endpoint? are such distinctions ultimately moot? or are they still important? and if so, how?
That would be to assume that they are all "the same endpoint." And based on subjective descriptions, per above, that's quite an assumption.
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:12 PM   #22
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Originally posted by Irvine511
by definition, can a spiritual experience be indisputably true?

how do we measure these things beyond the word of the person who experiences it?
You can't box the spiritual experience by scientific methods
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:19 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Irvine511


by definition, can a spiritual experience be indisputably true?

how do we measure these things beyond the word of the person who experiences it?
Why would you want/need to measure them? They are sacred experiences for the individual and shouldn't even be discussed with another, imo. To discuss them could only come from the ego. I know what you're saying--you want proof. But the serious devotee of a spiritual practice involving meditation has "true spiritual experiences" all the time and rarely ever discusses them. I feel that to base one's beliefs on another's experiences or because of something you read in a book is futile. Everyone must have their own direct experience and no one can take it from them.
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:24 PM   #24
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Originally posted by stammer476


That would be to assume that they are all "the same endpoint." And based on subjective descriptions, per above, that's quite an assumption.


so if the endpoint is inherently subjective, it seems as if nothing exists beyond the sensory capacities of the subject.
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:25 PM   #25
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


You can't box the spiritual experience by scientific methods


oh, i agree.

but you made the distinction between a spritual experience and a true spiritual experience.

what's the difference?
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:27 PM   #26
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl


Why would you want/need to measure them? They are sacred experiences for the individual and shouldn't even be discussed with another, imo. To discuss them could only come from the ego. I know what you're saying--you want proof. But the serious devotee of a spiritual practice involving meditation has "true spiritual experiences" all the time and rarely ever discusses them. I feel that to base one's beliefs on another's experiences or because of something you read in a book is futile. Everyone must have their own direct experience and no one can take it from them.


i totally agree.

but what does the subjectiveness of the experience say about the idea of a "spiritual experience" as a whole? can we say nothing about them? can we regard some as more authentic than others? can we say that "my spiritual experience in Tibet was more authentic than your spiritual experience eating pizza at Pepe's in New Haven?" are there rules?
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:40 PM   #27
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Originally posted by Irvine511
so if the endpoint is inherently subjective, it seems as if nothing exists beyond the sensory capacities of the subject.
I guess I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

Experiences are experiences, and their inherently subjective nature requires that they can't be weighed, measured, and seriously compared. The scientific measuring of brain chemistry may one day give us a glimpse of that, but we're not there yet.

But it seems to me that you're seeking to understand what conclusions can be drawn from the similarity of these experiences. Quite frankly, I don't see any. To me, spiritual experiences aren't grounds for a valid defense of any faith persuasion, and therefore can't validate or invalidate a faith.

I've had spiritual experiences, and while they are nice, they aren't why I'm a Christian. Does that help?
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Old 01-10-2006, 02:40 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511


i totally agree.

but what does the subjectiveness of the experience say about the idea of a "spiritual experience" as a whole? can we say nothing about them? can we regard some as more authentic than others? can we say that "my spiritual experience in Tibet was more authentic than your spiritual experience eating pizza at Pepe's in New Haven?" are there rules?
Spiritual experiences by definition are subjective. The devotee doesn't need science to tell them they've had a spiritual experience any more than you, for example, need science to tell you that being gay isn't a choice. So the whole idea of "proving" the existance of God or of spiritual experiences is kind of a joke really.
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
are there rules?
yes

no

yes and no

neither yes nor no
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Old 01-10-2006, 04:36 PM   #30
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


yes

no

yes and no

neither yes nor no



well, that's not very helpful.

i'd like to have a discussion about this stuff, but it does seem as if we need to agree on some objective rules and vocabulary if we are going to have a dialogue about subjective experiences.

also, people can and do pull objective statements from their subjective experiences. can't we do something of the same?
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