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Old 05-12-2008, 11:50 PM   #16
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Why do American "libertarians" just seem to be nothing more than a bunch of reactionary social conservatives? Because I certainly don't see them supporting "liberty" in the larger sense.

I have a bit of a libertarian streak in me, at times, but it resembles absolutely nothing of the American definition of "libertarianism." They're just downright creepy--like "Scientologist creepy."
What flavour of libertarian are you talking about?
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Old 05-13-2008, 12:05 AM   #17
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What flavour of libertarian are you talking about?
American libertarians are probably what one refers to as "paleolibertarians." However, as I see it, "libertarianism" that de-emphasizes personal liberty and positive rights as irrelevant, and happy to see the state keep an iron fist on those issues (i.e., Ron Paul), is really just plain-old social conservatism. The term, "paleolibertarian" is, frankly, superfluous and misleading. True libertarians, who want less state interference in both economic and social matters, should be appalled by this faction, who have done little more than paint the entire movement as just plain nutty.
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Old 05-13-2008, 07:24 PM   #18
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Old 05-16-2008, 09:58 AM   #19
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[q]Barr on gay marriage: California decision is how it’s supposed to work

Friday, May 16, 2008, 08:25 AM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Libertarian presidential candidate Bob Barr says that when it comes to gay marriage, what happens in California is California’s own business. He’s a states’ rights man.

Here’s the statement Barr’s issued, which — one week before the Libertarian national convention in Denver — is likely to generate some talk:
barrgay.jpg

“Regardless of whether one supports or opposes same sex marriage, the decision to recognize such unions or not ought to be a power each state exercises on its own, rather than imposition of a one-size-fits-all mandate by the federal government (as would be required by a Federal Marriage Amendment which has been previously proposed and considered by the Congress).

The decision today by the Supreme Court of California properly reflects this fundamental principle of federalism on which our nation was founded.

“Indeed, the primary reason for which I authored the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996 was to ensure that each state remained free to determine for its citizens the basis on which marriage would be recognized within its borders, and not be forced to adopt a definition of marriage contrary to its views by another state.

The decision in California is an illustration of how this principle of states’ powers should work.”[/q]
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Old 05-19-2008, 09:33 PM   #20
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Old 05-20-2008, 10:16 AM   #21
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http://www.lp.org/


you've changed your position on gay marriage, right? after all, as a libertarian, i should be free to enter into any contract i so choose with whatever partner i so choose, correct? this is what your candidate for president is saying, and it doesn't matter a fig what your religious beliefs are, because you know very well, as a libertarian, that they don't belong in the public arena, right?

or is this just fashion, a way to be different?
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:19 PM   #22
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Originally posted by melon


Without sadism, one reverts to the next best thing: self-centeredness.

Enter the U.S. Libertarian Party.
Call me old-fashioned.

I deem self-centredness infinitely more moral than the war-mongering imperialism/statism of the War Party (95% of the Rethugs, and a good 70-80% of the Dimocrats. )
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Old 05-20-2008, 02:21 PM   #23
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Originally posted by Irvine511




you've changed your position on gay marriage, right? after all, as a libertarian, i should be free to enter into any contract i so choose with whatever partner i so choose, correct? this is what your candidate for president is saying, and it doesn't matter a fig what your religious beliefs are, because you know very well, as a libertarian, that they don't belong in the public arena, right?

or is this just fashion, a way to be different?

I am not answering for Iron Horse.

But it is entirely possible to morally disapprove of homosexuality on a PERSONAL level and yet disagree with legislation banning contracts for marriage between consenting adults.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:39 PM   #24
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But it is entirely possible to morally disapprove of homosexuality on a PERSONAL level and yet disagree with legislation banning contracts for marriage between consenting adults.
Sure it's possible, we just never see it.
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Old 05-20-2008, 05:44 PM   #25
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I am not answering for Iron Horse.

But it is entirely possible to morally disapprove of homosexuality on a PERSONAL level and yet disagree with legislation banning contracts for marriage between consenting adults.


yes, absolutely.

i could fight on the absurdity of "morally disapprov[ing]" of something as natural as being left-handed, but the point remains -- the libertarian position is to increase freedom, not to kick those who are different and make sure that they remain contemptible lest they start to get all comfortable and uppity.
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Old 05-20-2008, 08:45 PM   #26
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I am not answering for Iron Horse.

But it is entirely possible to morally disapprove of homosexuality on a PERSONAL level and yet disagree with legislation banning contracts for marriage between consenting adults.


Thank you financeguy.
You expressed it well
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Old 05-20-2008, 11:02 PM   #27
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Thank you financeguy.
You expressed it well


glad to hear we can count you as yet another homophobe for gay marriage!

you know what i disagree with on a PERSONAL level? red hair.

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Old 05-22-2008, 08:44 PM   #28
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Consider the poor Washington libertarian. Everywhere else in America his type is an exotic species, a coffee-shop heretic who quotes from "Atlas Shrugged" and steers every conversation toward Ron Paul or gold. Take him or leave him, he doesn't care. He is his own master.

Not so the Beltway variety. Here, in the very home of the taxing, regulating leviathan, the libertarian is such a commonplace and unremarkable bird that no one gives him a second glance. Here he is a factotum of the establishment, a tiny voice in a vast choir assembled by business and its tax-exempt front groups to sing the virtues of the entrepreneur.

And therein lies his dilemma. Almost by definition, our young libertarian's job is to celebrate the profit motive from the offices of a not-for-profit organization. He is subsidized, in other words, to hymn the unsubsidized way of life. Rugged individualism may be his creed, but a rugged individual he ain't.

This is more than just an abstract problem, as I discovered last week at a panel discussion hosted by America's Future Foundation, one of the lesser libertarian nonprofits in the city. The questions that night were whether nonprofit work constituted a "real job" and if moving to the private sector was "selling out" – ideas well known to any liberal do-gooder.

The audience of young professionals learned about the need to find a job that you loved. It heard the inevitable complaint that "there are plenty of people who are choosing for-profit over nonprofit" when their heart tells them to do the opposite. A panelist asked the audience to imagine a foundation worker saying to his boss, "I love what I do, but in the end I've got a wife and three kids, and we live in McLean, and the mortgage is through the roof, and my commute sucks, or whatever, I need a little bit more cash," only to have his employer turn him down.

These plaints sounded so familiar that I felt like suggesting that everyone there hop out and grab a copy of Daniel Brook's fine but distinctly unlibertarian 2007 book "The Trap." By skewing society's rewards so lopsidedly to the top in the country's richest cities, Mr. Brook writes, the tax-reducing, market-minded economic policies of the last few decades have priced all sorts of high-minded occupations to the bottom of the middle class: teaching, the arts, and, of course, nonprofit work.

Many of the people Mr. Brook talks to in such cities haven't given up on these pursuits because they're "sellouts"; they've given up because they want proper health care or decent housing or good schools for their kids.

In traditional sellout theory there is always some grand cause or principle that is being exchanged for immediate gain – artistic independence, for example, or the fate of the panda, trembling piteously before the onrushing bulldozers of modernity.

But what is it that libertarians are selling when they accept the fat paychecks of corporate America? The noble principle of self interest? The utopia of the market itself? Will the workings of supply and demand really seize up if some young Ayn Randette chooses to forsake, say, the Cato Institute and instead help ExxonMobil pile up the pelf?

Fortunately, there were a few plainspoken men of the market present at the gathering to set things straight. Capitalists were the world's real heroes, they reminded us, delivering value to the public and seeing that value quantified precisely by the numbers on the balance sheet. That was reality. the idea that "there's something special about nonprofits," scoffed one forthright fellow – "well, that's crap. Nonprofits are an artifice of the law, and what's special about them is not that they do different things or that they are organized in a special way, it's that they don't pay taxes."

Personally, I would take this hard line one step further: Selling out is not a threat to the market order; selling out is how the market gets its way. Just look at the city in which all these remarks were made. Private-sector Washington is one of the wealthiest places in America. Public-service Washington lags considerably behind. The chance of ditching the one for the other is what accounts for everything from the power of K Street to the infamous "revolving door," by which a public servant takes a cushy corporate job after engineering some extravagant government favor for the corporation in question – or its clients.

The libertarian nonprofits that line the city's streets often serve merely to rationalize this operation after the fact, giving a pious shine to the policies that are made in this unholy manner.

To their credit, the nonprofit libertarians I watched the other night did not ask for sympathy. Their own doctrine won't permit it. Having spent years urging lawmakers to wreck the social order that once made occupations like theirs tenable, they will cling stubbornly to their free-market idol all the way down.
Fighting Words - WSJ.com
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Old 05-22-2008, 08:57 PM   #29
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you know what i disagree with on a PERSONAL level? red hair.

I hear it was quite fashionable to "disagree" with the Irish back in the day.



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Old 05-22-2008, 09:53 PM   #30
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Is Iron Horse Irish?
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