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Old 06-30-2008, 09:30 PM   #31
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Jimmy Carter was ahead of his time. Read his speech from 1977 on his energy plan (American Experience | Jimmy Carter | Primary Sources). He was off by a few years, but he basically predicted what is happening now.

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The fifth principle is that we must be fair. Our solutions must ask equal sacrifices from every region, every class of people, every interest group. Industry will have to do its part to conserve, just as the consumers will. The energy producers deserve fair treatment, but we will not let the oil companies profiteer.

The sixth principle, and the cornerstone of our policy, is to reduce the demand through conservation. Our emphasis on conservation is a clear difference between this plan and others which merely encouraged crash production efforts. Conservation is the quickest, cheapest, most practical source of energy. Conservation is the only way we can buy a barrel of oil for a few dollars. It costs about $13 to waste it.

The seventh principle is that prices should generally reflect the true replacement costs of energy. We are only cheating ourselves if we make energy artificially cheap and use more than we can really afford.

The eighth principle is that government policies must be predictable and certain. Both consumers and producers need policies they can count on so they can plan ahead. This is one reason I am working with the Congress to create a new Department of Energy, to replace more than 50 different agencies that now have some control over energy.

The ninth principle is that we must conserve the fuels that are scarcest and make the most of those that are more plentiful. We can't continue to use oil and gas for 75 percent of our consumption when they make up seven percent of our domestic reserves. We need to shift to plentiful coal while taking care to protect the environment, and to apply stricter safety standards to nuclear energy.

The tenth principle is that we must start now to develop the new, unconventional sources of energy we will rely on in the next century.
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Old 06-30-2008, 10:57 PM   #32
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I'm an Obama supporter.

I don't like ethanol as a solution to our energy woes.
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:34 PM   #33
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Guess which democrat and Obama supporter does not support the windmills being put up in MA?

Ahhh its all water under the bridge.


Mary Jo? is that you?

are you going to tar Obama with that incident as well?
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Old 07-01-2008, 12:35 PM   #34
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and are ugly, when they are put out in the beautiful open spaces that we all cherish


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Old 07-01-2008, 01:15 PM   #35
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Anyone who thinks ethanol is a good alternative energy source needs to get his head checked. It's just as depleteable as oil!
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Old 07-01-2008, 01:31 PM   #36
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the greatest error of the 21st century has been this administration's move to establish a quasi-American empire in the middle of Mesopotamia in order to "secure" middle eastern oil and continue our heroin like dependence on this product.

should we continue to give our oil company billions upon billions of tax breaks? should we start more wars on their behalf? is it alright with you that oil companies spend upwards of $400m lobbying Congress to pass energy legislation that's good for earth raping oil? while i might agree with you on a the uselessness of a windfall tax, it seems that these welfare queen companies don't need quite as much assistance as they get.
First, the United States is not an empire nor has it established one or tried to establish one in Mesopotamia. The entire global economy is currently dependent on Persian Gulf oil and has been for decades. Keeping Persian Gulf Oil supply secure is not a mistake, but an absolute necessity if global society is to have any future, let alone be able to develop new sources of energy that are cheaper and more efficient than oil. You can't get there from here if you do not protect the current life line of the global economy. Every US administration since FDR has understood how vital the Persian Gulf is to the world. Even Jimmy Carter said he was ready to use nuclear weapons to defend Persian Gulf oil supply 30 years ago when the planet was less dependent on the region than it is today.

In addition, simply developing cheaper more efficient energy sources in the United Sates won't alone solve the world's energy needs and dependence on the Persian Gulf. This is a global problem with China and India's energy needs having a greater impact in the coming years on global energy supply than any other region or country. Even a country like Brazil that no longer imports oil and uses sugarcane based ethanol for much of its energy needs, would still be seriously impacted by a disruption of Persian Gulf Oil. Such a disruption would heavily impact the global economy which would of course heavily impact Brazil which has exports and imports that account for a significant percentage of its annual GDP. Global economic interdependence means that only a global change in energy usage(not just a national one) will have a significant impact on the security relevance of the Persian Gulf.
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:45 PM   #37
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Anyone who thinks ethanol is a good alternative energy source needs to get his head checked.
And why is that? I don't believe it's THE alternative energy source, but it is A good alternative.

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It's just as depleteable as oil!
Care to explain this one?
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Old 07-01-2008, 02:55 PM   #38
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Global economic interdependence means that only a global change in energy usage(not just a national one) will have a significant impact on the security relevance of the Persian Gulf.
Only thing is, while most developed countries have taken some steps to change energy usage, small and big ones, sometimes good, sometimes not, often not enough, but at least something, the US didn't really do that much to get less dependent on oil or change the consumption structure of the country.
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Old 07-01-2008, 06:51 PM   #39
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Mary Jo? is that you?

are you going to tar Obama with that incident as well?
Given the Kennedy family, at least the Massachusetts Kennedys, have made Obama since the endorsement, I think it fair to point out that Teddy and family have worked hard to prevent windmill farms from being planted. If the powerful family behind Obama is against it, I would hesitate to believe he will be effective at making it happen.

Why would I tar Obama, with Mary Jo. I do not even know how to respond to your implication. I guess I can crawl back into retirement.
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Old 07-01-2008, 07:11 PM   #40
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You got 'tar'

I got "kneepads for Bill Clinton"



maybe we can do a gift exchange?
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:14 PM   #41
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You got 'tar'

I got "kneepads for Bill Clinton"



maybe we can do a gift exchange?
Hehe!!!!!!
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Old 07-01-2008, 08:31 PM   #42
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could you unpack this? it strikes me as quite contradictory at the moment.
Yes, on the point about fuel mileage. Sales of gas guzzlers are "tanking," if you will. Google the Ford or GM results from the last few quarters. I've heard the horror stories about people trying to trade in SUVs for more efficient vehicles. Dealers aren't giving anything for SUVs, because they aren't selling well.

In the long run this is healthy for this country. Higher gas prices are the reality. And change is being driven by market oil prices. The same market that has determined the price of commodities for decades, in good times and bad. Not by Washington. And not by the congresspeople elected in '06, who promised lower energy prices in their stump speeches. Neither party can manipulate the world oil market, certainly not in the short run.

As an aside, I think the corporate tax system is rigged. The oil companies shouldn't be getting a better deal than any other industry that has Congress in their pocket. But I still cringe at the idea of a "windfall" profits tax. It's window dressing.
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Old 07-01-2008, 10:54 PM   #43
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And why is that? I don't believe it's THE alternative energy source, but it is A good alternative.
I don't agree that it's a particularly good alternative. The process of converting corn to ethanol is wasteful - more energy goes in than you get out of it. That's not a very good starting point, especially considering we should be moving towards alternatives that conserve energy and resources as much as possible.
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Old 07-01-2008, 11:26 PM   #44
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I don't agree that it's a particularly good alternative. The process of converting corn to ethanol is wasteful - more energy goes in than you get out of it. That's not a very good starting point, especially considering we should be moving towards alternatives that conserve energy and resources as much as possible.
You are right, as of now, it's not. That's why I keep bringing up the latest findings where a group of scientist have now said they can use the stalk and keep the corn, it's a completely different process. We'll see if it can be implemented.
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Old 07-02-2008, 10:07 AM   #45
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Corn ethanol isn't a reliable alternative - droughts, floods, etc. can wipe out a crop and render it useless for that season.
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