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Old 04-21-2005, 04:21 PM   #46
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The Last Acceptable Prejudice is not a church, not in my opinon anyway. Some last acceptable preduices:

* naturally skinny females. "You are anorexic. You are so vain and selfish".

* very pale skinned people and/or people with freckles. Please name one media figure considered beautiful who has multitudes of freckles.

* red heads. I'm not personally red but they cop it too

etc.

At least with the issue of homosexuality some people know its not an issue. The media, despite its campy portrayals of gay people, actually does feature gay people occasionally.

The not socially acceptable slandering eg"You're fat" type of slander, the equivalent occurs with pale people. Daily. I'm not gay so I don't know how often gay people are pubicly slandered by people who have deemed themselves fit to judge others. Probably daily too.

If a person dyed their hair green and then copped abuse, (although its never appropriate) if the abuse gets too much they have the option to change.

Not an option with fair skinned people or freckled people or red heads (or gay people)
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:51 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


I wrote that to make a point - it symbolizes my frustration with people who think that people are entitled to their beliefs as long as that belief isn't that homosexuality is wrong; that having that belief contributes to homosexuals being beaten.
So if my church starts a movement that being overweight is a sin, they'd be entitled to that "belief" and you would just leave it at that?
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Old 04-21-2005, 05:43 PM   #48
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Your church can believe whatever they want to; it's your right. I have a right to disagree. But i don't care if you say I'm sinning because I'm overweight - makes no difference to me what you think about my weight. When you start beating up and degrading fat people, then there's a problem.
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:10 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Nonsense, Irvine. Utter and complete nonsense.

I have never treated any homosexual with contempt, have never commited violence against any homosexual, and do not treat homsexuals as "2nd class citizens"; nor have I ever urged anyone to treat homosexuals that way. My belief that homosexuality is wrong doesn't contribute to any of the above. If you want to blame someone, blame those who commit those acts against you, not me.

You want to have your belief that homosexuality is not wrong, but if anyone has a dissenting opinion, you blame them for the wrongs done against homosexuals.

do you have a belief on left-handedness? how about having red hair?

what you don't get is that it is unacceptable to have an "opinion" on a naturally occurring orientation. it's perfectly legitimate to think that homosexuality is, to you as a heterosexual, gross. or at least unappetizing. but that's worlds away from saying that it's wrong.

your belief that it's "wrong" contributes to a culture that treats homosexuals like 2nd class citiznes.

shall we begin to list the ways? marriage is just the tip of the iceberg.
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:12 PM   #50
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Originally posted by saltwaterkiss26

If you can really be totally objective in all issues related to homosexuality and simultaneously believe that homosexuality is wrong, I salute you. But I think many people do and say many more hurtful things than they mean to because of that sort of internalized prejudice. I'm sure you never meant to be contemptuous or derisive towards a gay person. But are you sure you really haven't hurt anyone in any way? Couldn't just stating your believe that homosexuality is wrong make gay people feel like you're putting them on a lower level than you?

[/butts into argument she doesn't really belong in]

absolutely.

i would say the #1 disfuction in the gay community is self-loathing. from self-loathing comes a whole host of social problems -- alcoholism, drug abuse, reckless behavior, suicide, etc.

it is my job, my duty, my calling, to be out and visible and to let everyone know that such attitudes have real consequences for real people. it's not about tolerance, it's not even about acceptance, it's about understanding that there is no moral difference between a heteroseuxal relationship and a homosexual relationship. one is not definitionally better than the other, each relationship is as strong, worthy, and moral as the participants.

you can say whatever you want, you can believe whatever you want -- but if i hear something i disagree with to the depths of my soul, i am not going to nod and respect your opinion. i will respect your right to that opinion, but not the opinion itself.
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:21 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I think I'll just go to a programmer to get this horrible, violence-causing belief out of my head.

let's have coffee or a beer sometime. i'm sure meeting real, live gay people and getting to know them as human beings and not thinking of them as sex acts, and then seeing how they fuction, so utterly and throughly normally, in their relationships that are every bit as boring and quotidian as your run-of-the-mill straight relationship would go a long way.
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Old 04-21-2005, 07:31 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511



let's have coffee or a beer sometime. i'm sure meeting real, live gay people and getting to know them as human beings and not thinking of them as sex acts, and then seeing how they fuction, so utterly and throughly normally, in their relationships that are every bit as boring and quotidian as your run-of-the-mill straight relationship would go a long way.
I've had gay friends. And as I've said before, I don't view gay people as any less valuable than anyone else, so you can take your condescension elsewhere.
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:05 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
you can say whatever you want, you can believe whatever you want -- but if i hear something i disagree with to the depths of my soul, i am not going to nod and respect your opinion. i will respect your right to that opinion, but not the opinion itself.
I'm the one respecting your view in this whole thing, Irvine. You have not respected mine. You have insinuated that I look upon gay people as lower than me, and you have accused my belief of fueling the evil that exists when people beat up gays. You preach tolerance, but you aren't very tolerant.
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Old 04-21-2005, 08:14 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

I'm the one respecting your view in this whole thing, Irvine. You have not respected mine. You have insinuated that I look upon gay people as lower than me, and you have accused my belief of fueling the evil that exists when people beat up gays. You preach tolerance, but you aren't very tolerant.

i'll ask you again: is it wrong to be a red head? is it against nature to be left-handed?

when you label something as intimate as well as complex as homosexuality "wrong," and that "God didn't make anyone gay" you do contribute to a climate that makes gay people less safe. i'm certain you wouldn't intend to do this, but biblical justifications tend to do a really good job excusing violence -- you know, the way religion drives airplanes into buildilngs.

put yourself in someone else's shoes and see how it feels. you claim that christians are stereotyped on TV. well take that feeling, and remember that we live with that every single day of our lives -- only these people operating under such stereotypes aren't on TV, they're in Congress.

there's too much as stake -- both in the lives of gay people, and in the fact that, since gays aren't going anywhere, WE SHOULD WORRY ABOUT OTHER THINGS -- for me to quietly agree to disagree with you. i will defend your right to say that homosexality is immoral. i know you say you are a sinner, but how would you feel if that sin was as basic and as essential for life as how you loved another person?
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Old 04-21-2005, 09:22 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i'll ask you again: is it wrong to be a red head? is it against nature to be left-handed?
No, it's sure not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

when you label something as intimate as well as complex as homosexuality "wrong," and that "God didn't make anyone gay" you do contribute to a climate that makes gay people less safe.
I've said it before, and i'll say it again: nonsense. People are responsible for their own actions. I'm not, unless I fuel the hate. And having a non-hateful opinion doesn't fuel hateful actions.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
i'm certain you wouldn't intend to do this, but biblical justifications tend to do a really good job excusing violence -- you know, the way religion drives airplanes into buildilngs.
PEOPLE drive airplanes into buildings, not religion. People are responsible for their own actions. People who claim to be Christians who beat up gays are at fault, not Christianity itself, especially since Christ spoke against hatred.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
put yourself in someone else's shoes and see how it feels. you claim that christians are stereotyped on TV. well take that feeling, and remember that we live with that every single day of our lives -- only these people operating under such stereotypes aren't on TV, they're in Congress.
If you think that I am happy that gay people are mistreated, you are wrong. However, I am not going to say that something is right when I think it is wrong, just because some people who claim Christianity treat gay people horribly. And yes, if I saw someone treating a gay person badly, I'd object to it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
there's too much as stake -- both in the lives of gay people, and in the fact that, since gays aren't going anywhere, WE SHOULD WORRY ABOUT OTHER THINGS -- for me to quietly agree to disagree with you. i will defend your right to say that homosexality is immoral. i know you say you are a sinner, but how would you feel if that sin was as basic and as essential for life as how you loved another person?
I do not think it's a sin to be tempted by homosexual thoughts. Everyone is tempted by something. What I think is a sin is to act on it. But I think anyone who succumbs to temptation is committing sin.

It's not essential for anyone to have sex, homosexual or heterosexual. I am not married, so I do not have sex. If I did, that would be sin.
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:05 AM   #56
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Back to the original thread topic, I don't see an exceptional amount of Catholic follower bashing. I see Catholic heirarchy bashing. During the pedophilia scandal, no one was coming down on the Catholics, but on the pedophile priests and the higher ups who covered it up. No one is blaming the parishioners.
Many people, including American Catholics, take issue with the doctrines of the church, but on a whole, I think that the Catholic followers are among the more respected of the Christian groups.
They get great songs, great books, great theological debate. At least in my experience. So are you saying that Catholics are the last acceptable prejudice or the Catholic heirarchy is? Not being Catholic, I'm a little confused here. On a whole, I respect the Catholic philosophy of prolife as it is down the line consistent--no
birth control, no abortion, minimal war, no death penalty. I may not agree with the particulars, but I can respect their position. i think the evangelicals are much more criticized (and much easier targets )

Sin? Isn't sin defined as that which separates you from God? (or hurts someone else?) I cannot see homosexuality as doing that. It is morally neutral. It just is. I see spending more time judging other people for their perceived sins than worrying about the status of your own behavior as separating from God (You are not included in this, 80'sU2. You seem to follow your own moral code and have the ability to question your own thoughts) Why is it so many religious followers concentrate on the "don't" aspects of their religion, instead of the "do"? I also don't think it is psychologically common to hate the sin and love the sinner. I think hating the sinner starts to creep in subconsciously. If I hate pedophilia, I hate the pedophiliac. If I hate murder, I hate the murderer. If I hate rape, I hate the rapist.
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:18 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
The Last Acceptable Prejudice is not a church, not in my opinon anyway. Some last acceptable preduices:

* naturally skinny females. "You are anorexic. You are so vain and selfish".

* very pale skinned people and/or people with freckles. Please name one media figure considered beautiful who has multitudes of freckles.

* red heads. I'm not personally red but they cop it too

etc.

At least with the issue of homosexuality some people know its not an issue. The media, despite its campy portrayals of gay people, actually does feature gay people occasionally.

The not socially acceptable slandering eg"You're fat" type of slander, the equivalent occurs with pale people. Daily. I'm not gay so I don't know how often gay people are pubicly slandered by people who have deemed themselves fit to judge others. Probably daily too.

If a person dyed their hair green and then copped abuse, (although its never appropriate) if the abuse gets too much they have the option to change.

Not an option with fair skinned people or freckled people or red heads (or gay people)

Nicole Kidman. I know you watched BMX Bandits and know how pale, skinny and freckled she is. You also wrote 'pubicly'. And forgot your mate from Vicar of Dibley.




Sincerely,
Fellow glow in the dark white skip


PS I do agree with you though
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:30 AM   #58
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Well, we could discuss the persecution of fair haired people pubicly, but thats another thread.

Nicole Kidman no longer has freckles. Shes Jackoed her skin, or something. That's my point. There are no Hollywood beautiful people with freckles.
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Old 04-22-2005, 03:33 AM   #59
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Lucy Liu has a few.

Hey, that rhymes.

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Old 04-22-2005, 03:40 AM   #60
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lol. She doesnt really count.

I mean people with thousands of freckles. I just googled "freckles beauty" and received a tonne of links to sites about how to remove/cover/bleach/ or otherwise get rid of freckles.

Which is exactly my point. Why can't they be beautiful? :woe:
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