The Israel / Palestine situation

[Not George Lucas]

I used to be very pro-Israel. I figured Israel was the chosen land, and it's one of the United States' closest allies. The way I saw it, Palestine should just get over it and let the Israelis live in peace. I was a good American.

Then I met a guy named Khalil. I work at the university where I also attend classes, and one of my jobs is to teach how to make web pages. Khalil signed up for my class. Repeatedly. And he wanted to use Front Page. I knew nothing about Front Page at the time, and it was pretty common for me to tell my students I teach pure HTML. He insisted that we use Front Page, and I agreed reluctantly. Together we put together a pretty informative web page with lots of opinion pieces he wrote for various classes, the school newspaper, the city newspaper, and so on, and there were also lots and lots of pictures. We put them all together to make a pretty nice site. I'm pretty pleased with it, although there are a few cosmetic changes I'd like to make. You can look at the site .here

But I'm digressing.

Khalil is from Palestine, and he's very proud of his heritage. He's also very passionate about his stance that Israel shout leave Palestine for good (since they've been occupying it since 1967). He likes to write letters to the editors of various newspapers, expressing his views and experiences. After reading some of his articles, I've come to realize that Israel is clearly in the wrong about many things, and most Americans are either unaware of them or choose to ignore them.

In a recent letter to the school newspaper, a student wrote this, which, I have noticed, tends to be a typical American view of the situation:

I would like to commend Israel and Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for the remarkable job they are doing in their ?war on terrorism?. Israel is in the same situation that the United States is in. They are simply defending themselves from suicide bomber terrorists that are attacking them. Suicide bombers attacked us on September 11, using planes as bombs, and we are currently at war defending ourselves and protecting against any further terrorist attack. I find it disgusting that someone like Khalil Azar can defend Palestine and accuse Israel of ?bullying? them. They are simply defending themselves just as we are doing. If you are against Israel, then you must be against America and our war on terrorism - our war for freedom. As far as Israel not relenting to U.N. resolutions because they possess nuclear weapons, America also possesses nuclear weapons, but we are certaintly not going against any U.N. resolution in doing so. The reason is simple: the United States and Israel are not terrorist countries, and we do not support terrorism like Saddam Hussein and Yasar Arafat. Also, the United States and Israel are not a threat to use nuclear weapons as a form of terrorism. I wonder why Kahlil moved here in the first place, if he is against the freedom and the right to defend that freedom that America and Israel stand for? I think Kahlil could write an article about Major League Baseball and end up talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Give us a break! Cowardice people are undermining America if they do not support the right to defend the freedom that America stands for. If Khalil wants to defend his Palestinian people so badly, then he should get out of America and move back to Palestine!

Jeff Jellum

Now, I'm not going to come right out and say that this Jeff Jellum is an ignorant waste of skin whose death I would celebrate. That would be unprofessional and useless. Instead I want to point out a few flaws.

1. Ariel Sharon is hardly a hero. He encourages terrorism against Palestinians. He's wanted for war crimes in multiple countries. He has done nothing to preserve peace in that region. While Yasser Arafat is not the greatest of men, he does condemn terrorist activity, and he has done a lot of work in the past to try to preserve peace. You may even recall that Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994, along with Shimon Peres and Yitzak Rabin, "for their efforts to create peace in the Middle East."

2. Israel is not simply defending itself from suicide bombers. Israel has had a military occupation in Palestine for the last 35 years. Military occupations are by nature violent. These so-called terrorists are not trying to bring down the capitalist Americans. They're trying to get equal rights for their people. They don't want radical Islam to dominate the world. They want their famlies to be able to walk the streets without being harrassed or shot at. Furthermore, Israel is in violation of countless UN treaties and agreements and is responsible for multiple human rights violations, including (but not limited to) treating anyone who isn't Jewish (Muslims, and Christians alike) as second-class citizens, threatening, injuring, and killing doctors, nurses, and paramedics, shutting off water and electricity in hospitals, forcibly removing Palestinians from their homes at gunpoint, to make room for Israelis, and shooting Palestinian children for sport. And yet, somehow, it's unamerican to stand up to that?

3. In one way, I guess America is the same as Israel. Europeans flocked to the New World and almost wiped out an entire race of people in order to claim the land as their own. Our ancestors slaughtered thousands to take their land. Israel is no different. Zionists from around the world flocked to Palestine, and saughtered the indigenous people who were already there.

4. Why did Khalil move to this country when he loves his homeland so? We may never know. Maybe he just hungered for the basic dignity and human rights awarded to all people in this country. Maybe he couldn't find a new home after the one he had was taken from him by force, with the threat of being killed. Maybe he didn't like seeing his people suffer and die every single day. Maybe he thought he would make a better impact on Americans if he were in America.

I hope all this at least makes you think about the horrible situation in the Middle East.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

 

[joyfulgirl]

I just saw John Pilger's documentary "Palestine is Still the Issue." Quite disturbing. I'm not sure where it's available in the U.S. (I was able to acquire a copy through my work) but if you get a chance, check it out. Here is an article about it written by Pilger:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=2342

 

[kingofsorrow]

way to go GEORGE. i've know a palestinian family for about 14yrs now, and all this terrorists, anti-american behavior that ALMOST everyone attributes to their race, is something i could never understand. these people are the nicest people i've ever known in my life.

 

[Rainbow]

These so-called terrorists...

So you think the suicide bombers are not terrorists...?

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

one man's terrorist, is another man's freedom fighter. everything is subjective, including death.

 

[Not George Lucas]

I think anyone who is trying to save his/her country from military occupation and governmental oppression is justified in sacrificing him/herself for that cause. Palestine has been occupied by Israeli forces since 1967. Palestine has no army. Practically speaking, suicide bombing is an effective way of getting rid of invaders.

Defending yourself, your home, or your country is never terrorism. The Israelis want land. The Palestinians want freedom. Which is more important?

 

[u2loopy]

I just saw John Pilger's documentary "Palestine is Still the Issue." Quite disturbing. I'm not sure where it's available in the U.S. (I was able to acquire a copy through my work) but if you get a chance, check it out. Here is an article about it written by Pilger:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=22&ItemID=2342

My goodness...what a sobering article. One of the things mentioned that really stuck me was,

Only nine percent of those interviewed were aware that the Israelis were the occupiers.

I ashamedly admit that I am in the 91 percentile this comment refers to. Talk about misinformation!!!

I am in no way justifying the actions of the Palestinian 'terrorists', but it does definetly shed light now on the motives of these suicide bombers.

 

[ouizy]

I feel it neccessary to reply to this post for a number of reasons. I will list them first, then talk about them later.

1. American/Palestinian relations
2. The poor soul who wrote that article in the first place.
3. The fact that Not George Lucas posted a coherent post

1:
I will begin by saying that I would admit to being Zionist. That being out of the way I have to say that as much as I feel for Israelis living with the fear of being blown up on their way to school, work, to see family, wherever, I also feel for the Palestinians. I had been pro-Israel for a very long time and saw everything they did as right, and thought Palestinians were simply a bunch of terrorists trying to take back land that was never theirs in the first place. Well, my thoughts have changed, and I honestly have to blame a specific TV show for this. There was a show that was taped inside Palestinian refugee camps that showed the squallor that they live in. I do not think anyone on either side of the debate could have watched this and not felt for these people. Many of them have absolutely nothing. No food, no home, no clothes, nothing. People wonder why they are willing to kill themselves for their cause. Well, now I know. What I also know, however is that their cause is skewed. I think that may people in the world have come to the realization that Israel is a valid and prosperous state, and Palestine is not. As a matter of fact, there is no such place as Palestine, and never was. This is the crux of the Palestinians debate, that they want Palestine back and the Israelis should leave. Go back to the old testament and see who occupied the land. I can tell you it was neither Palestinians, nor Israelis, but a complete mix of both and for one side or the other to claim the land today seems ludacris. I think the Palestinian people should realize this, reorganize, and try to take on the US as an ally as we seem to be the only country willing to listen to this debate and do something about it. The fact that Yasser Arafat was awarded the Nobel Peace price is a farce. He wants peace about as much as GWBush has intelligence. For the Palestinians to achieve anything they MUST stop bombing. Those who bomb ARE terrorists in the pure form of the word. They bring about terror. How can these people expect to get anything if they act this way? They need true leadership who will squash that behavior and who will ally themselves with the EU, the US and even Asian nations, to bring about some kind of peace settlement, because as we have seen, Arafat can do nothing, the US has done nothing, and Israel is simply in the position to give, but will only give when proper political action is taken. I believe in my heart Israel will give, should give, and eventually will even be more prosperous with a friendly Palestinian neighbor when the process is complete and the Palestinians are seen by the world as a peaceful state, and not a collection of refugee camps filled with terrorists the way they are now.

2.
As for the writer of that article, all I can say is only ignorance can be the power behind a statement like:

If Khalil wants to defend his Palestinian people so badly, then he should get out of America and move back to Palestine!

Clearly the Plaestinian movement does not have the power from whatever land they have to defend themsleves, however they need to do so in a diplomatic, and not explosive way.

3. Kudos to Not George Lucas for writing a coherent post on such a touchy topic. It is good for people (such as Americans- even Zionist Americans like myself) to be able to expand their opinion on subjects like this and try to see what the other side of the debate really is about.

HOWEVER:

NGL - you are not getting off that easy. I will state again that statements like:

Now, I'm not going to come right out and say that this Jeff Jellum is an ignorant waste of skin whose death I would celebrate. That would be unprofessional and useless. Instead I want to point out a few flaws.

are unacceptable here as many may even agree with what he said. You have a way of speaking that simply pisses me off, and I have to assume others. I have to assume that Jeff Jellum is Jewish and a statement like "whose death I would celebrate" simply lets your ignorance shine. By even typing that in here you are actually "coming out and saying that..."

Now to your points:

1...While Yasser Arafat is not the greatest of men, he does condemn terrorist activity...

He may condemn it, but he takes no action against it. If he truly is the leader of the Palestinian people, he would have the power to find, arrest, and imprision members of such groups as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, but he does not. Somehow they are always able to blow themselves up before he is able to bring them to justice. If he was a true leader such as Tony Blair, or even GWBush, he would have this power. He does not. Do you think for one moment that a group like Hamas would be able to operate in the US? Of course not. After the first incident, the rest of the conspiritors would be arrested and imprisioned. Not so in the Middle East, though. It goes on and on...

2...Israel is not simply defending itself from suicide bombers. Israel has had a military occupation in Palestine for the last 35 years

Please define "Palestine." Tell me where the origin of the word came from, and what Israel was before it has been recognized by the world as a state for the past 35 or so years...

...removing Palestinians from their homes at gunpoint, to make room for Israelis, and shooting Palestinian children for sport. And yet, somehow, it's unamerican to stand up to that?

The Israeli governments doctrine is to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bombers (aka terrorists). Not to make way for Israelis, but to simply punish the criminals and their families if they blow themselves up. This has to be looked at as the opposite of what Saddam Hussein is doing by paying these families $10,000 for what their criminal child has done by blowing themselves up. As for shooting Palestinian children for sport, this is just another example of how you let your feelings take over what you write and allow immature thoughts to come out in your writings. That simply is not true, and is quite offensive.

3...Zionists from around the world flocked to Palestine, and saughtered the indigenous people who were already there.

Again, please define 'Palestine' and tell me the beginning date as to the first people who lived in this region. You have to go back to Biblical times and I think anyone would be hard pressed to give a definitive answer to this without relying on a book written thousands of years ago. The indigenous people you refer to were a mix of nomads who existed even before organized religion was established.

4...Why did Khalil move to this country when he loves his homeland so? We may never know. Maybe he just hungered for the basic dignity and human rights awarded to all people in this country. Maybe he couldn't find a new home after the one he had was taken from him by force, with the threat of being killed. Maybe he didn't like seeing his people suffer and die every single day. Maybe he thought he would make a better impact on Americans if he were in America.

I fully agree with this statement and do believe that for any action to be positive in that region - it has to come from the outside.

I will go back to a statement I made a while ago. I beleive that the UN must occupy Israel and the Palestinian territories with troops for a specific period of time while negotiations take place. I believe any infraction of a specific set of rules the UN dictates by EITHER side should have international action taken against them. I do not think these two groups of people can do this by themselves, and there is no reason for the violence to stop at the rate they are going. Both sides deserve better and it is going to take a third party to give this to them.

I hope everyone can imagine that region in full prosperity. Palestinian cities aglow with cafes, stores, schools and entertainment. The same for Israel. The region needs to be built so one side is not jeolous of the other, and they cannot blame religion for their differences. Hopefully this can happen in our lifetime.

peace

 

[ouizy]

Here we go again:

Practically speaking, suicide bombing is an effective way of getting rid of invaders.

you make me ill

 

[nbcrusader]

I think anyone who is trying to save his/her country from military occupation and governmental oppression is justified in sacrificing him/herself for that cause. Palestine has been occupied by Israeli forces since 1967. Palestine has no army. Practically speaking, suicide bombing is an effective way of getting rid of invaders.

Defending yourself, your home, or your country is never terrorism. The Israelis want land. The Palestinians want freedom. Which is more important?

I?d like to see you make that statement to the families of suicide bombing victims.

Actually, Israel has given up land for the sake of peace.

Israel is surrounded by peoples who would, bottom line, like to see all Jews dead. This is something that Americans, living in relative security, will never fully comprehend.

 

[lady lemonade]

Defending yourself, your home, or your country is never terrorism. The Israelis want land. The Palestinians want freedom. Which is more important?

If it were only that simple... Arafat would have signed the Camp David accord, giving Palestinians more than 95% of the territories they are asking for and there might be a Palestinian state right now. Until the beginning of the Intifada in September 2000, Palestinians enjoyed a relative freedom, they were free to go about the occupied territories and many of them even worked in Israel. Killing innocent civiilians is never right no matter how justifed your cause is. It only leads to more suffering and violence on both sides.

 

[nbcrusader]

Ouizy,

Thank you for such an intelligent, well thought out response.

 

[ouizy]

I simply cannot sit by and listen to someone ramble on totally one sided about a subject, especially this one without realizing the consequences of the post.

Justifying killing is never OK. Justifying suicide/homicide bombing is NEVER OK. I am positive there have been Israelis killed who have tried their best to do everything they could for the Palestinian people.

 

[Rainbow]

I think anyone who is trying to save his/her country from military occupation and governmental oppression is justified in sacrificing him/herself for that cause. Palestine has been occupied by Israeli forces since 1967. Palestine has no army. Practically speaking, suicide bombing is an effective way of getting rid of invaders.

Invaders? Are you saying that Israel invaded Tel Aviv? Or the cities near it?
An effective way? I can't believe I'm hearing this. You are talking about murdering innocent people.

 

[joyfulgirl]

originally posted by ouizy
The Israeli governments doctrine is to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bombers (aka terrorists). Not to make way for Israelis, but to simply punish the criminals and their families if they blow themselves up. This has to be looked at as the opposite of what Saddam Hussein is doing by paying these families $10,000 for what their criminal child has done by blowing themselves up. As for shooting Palestinian children for sport, this is just another example of how you let your feelings take over what you write and allow immature thoughts to come out in your writings. That simply is not true, and is quite offensive.

ouizy, sadly, while the Israeli government's doctrine may be "to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bomber (aka terrorists)" the reality is that random, routine shootings of Palestinian civilians and indeed children by Israeli soldiers and settlers does in fact happen. I have personally talked with people who have witnessed this directly. John Pilger is a very well-known and respected journalist of integrity and he, too, witnessed this, as described in the article I posted above, excerpted here:

Israeli soldiers enforcing the illegal occupation of Palestinian land can cause the death of babies and other innocents, or kill them outright, and words such as murder and terrorism are almost never used. The same immunity has been enjoyed by those politicians who design and permit this "routine terrorism," which is the product of a form of colonialism....

When I was passing through Israeli checkpoints last May, there were several of these routine murders. A nurse was one of them. Nine-tenths of Palestinians killed by the Israelis are civilians; 45 per cent are teenagers and children. In Gaza, five years ago, an amusement park opened beside the sea. It was the only one in a deeply impoverished place populated mainly by refugees whose families were forced off their land or out of their villages by the Israelis.

"At first, it was very successful," said Walid Al Dirawi, who looks after the deserted ruin of rusting rides and dodgem cars. "Then the shooting started from across the road. The Israeli settlers and soldiers shot it up every weekend, and of course people stayed away." Behind the dodgems is a wall pock-marked with bullet holes, like a shooting gallery.

 

[ouizy]

Joyfulgirl:

As I have never been to the region, I would have to assume that there are scores of Palestinian children shot. Many of which, I am sure are completely innocent. That is wrong. In my mind, no matter where you live, children are innocent.

I am also sure that it is the doctrine of the Israeli army that they have to defend themselves. If a person, be it a child, attacks the soldiers, they have to defend themselves. Hopefully in the children's cases they use anything but live rounds, however, in a gang scenario, that is hard to do.

I simply am against the idea that Israeli soldiers (who by law have to serve) are shooting Palestinian children who are below them in health, wealth, and living standards are being shot for "sport."

No one who is 'innocent' deserves to be harmed in any way...

 

[Not George Lucas]

Yes, the Palestine-can-do-no-wrong-and-Israel-is-pure-evil stance is wrong and stupid. I never argued otherwise. My comment about how I would celebrate the guy's death is, well, just an example of the low value I place on human life and an illustration of my negative, cynical nature.

As far as actual content is concerned:

he was a true leader such as Tony Blair, or even GWBush, he would have this power. He does not.

Therein lies the problem. He does not have the power to control his people. No one does. The Palestinians are acting of their own accord, and Arafat tries to dissuade them, but, realistically, there's nothing he can do. Palestine has no army, no police force, and no real government. It is controlled by Israel, and Israel has all the power. Frankly, if Ariel Sharon hadn't ruined the uncomfortable peace there, they may have been able to work things out, and not so many innocent lives would have been lost.

Please define "Palestine." Tell me where the origin of the word came from, and what Israel was before it has been recognized by the world as a state for the past 35 or so years...

Palestine is the region the Hebrews flocked to after WWII. The indigenous people of that region were called Palestinians. They were routinely slaughtered and imprisoned for nothing more than trying to live in their home land. The Israelis reason that this is the Promised Land, and they, being descendants from Abraham, are entitled to it. What they don't realize is that many Palestinians are, in fact, also descendants from Abraham, and many converted to other religions. It's a case of religious discrimination. The fact that Israel is surrounded by Islamic nations has no bearing on the morality of this discrimination.

The Israeli governments doctrine is to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bombers (aka terrorists). Not to make way for Israelis, but to simply punish the criminals and their families if they blow themselves up. This has to be looked at as the opposite of what Saddam Hussein is doing by paying these families $10,000 for what their criminal child has done by blowing themselves up. As for shooting Palestinian children for sport, this is just another example of how you let your feelings take over what you write and allow immature thoughts to come out in your writings. That simply is not true, and is quite offensive.

Officially, that may be, but in reality, people are removed from their homes at gunpoint, simply for not being Jewish. It's a fact. It happened to a friend of mine. Nothing you say or do can change that. Despite what you may think, Israeli soldiers do shoot Palestinian children for sport. Do i need to show you the pictures of babies with bullet wounds? My thoughts are far from immature. They are based on real factual events. Your denial that none of this actually happens is as offensive to me as the people who insist the Holocaust never happened.

The indigenous people you refer to were a mix of nomads who existed even before organized religion was established

The indigenous people are the "nomads" and Hebrews who went there back in Biblical times. The land should be theirs, just as the land here should belong to the Native Americans. Just as I can't move into your home and claim it as my own, the Israelis had no right to take over Palestine.

I beleive that the UN must occupy Israel and the Palestinian territories with troops for a specific period of time while negotiations take place. I believe any infraction of a specific set of rules the UN dictates by EITHER side should have international action taken against them. I do not think these two groups of people can do this by themselves, and there is no reason for the violence to stop at the rate they are going. Both sides deserve better and it is going to take a third party to give this to them.

I agree. At this point, that is the only realistic, reasonable solution. In 1948, when Israel was declared a sovreign nation, they wanted to split the land with the Palestinians. Palestine did not want to give up their land, and Israel took it by force. Ideally, they could have come to a compromise, and I think it's still possible to do so, but such a compromise compromise can only be reached if Israel pulls out of the territory they've been occupying.

you make me ill

Thanks. Right back at you. I'm not defending suicide bombers. I think killing civilians is never acceptible in war. Nevertheless, suicide bombing is an effective means of warfare. On your standard battlefield, you have roughly equal numbers of soldiers, and the deaths/kills/ ration is pretty small. In other words, say you have 100 soldiers from Country A and 100 soldiers from Country B. For every 5 soldiers Country A kills, they lose about 2. So the ration is 2:5. With suicide bombings, the ratio is different. Suppose you have 1 suicide bomber from Country A and a dozen soldiers from Country B. The bomb goes off, killing 13 people. 13:1. Much more effective. As far as it being an acceptible form of warfare, that's different. It should never be used against civilians.

I?d like to see you make that statement to the families of suicide bombing victims.

Given the opportunity and proper occasion, I would.

 

[joyfulgirl]

Here are a couple of stories from Pilger's website www.johpilger.com that are included in the film. One is an Israeli soldier who now refuses to fight, and the other is the Israeli father of a little girl killed by a suicide bomber. These stories give me hope:

The soldier's story
Some Israelis have spoken out. More than 500 soldiers have refused to serve in the occupied territories. 'We are', they've said, 'like the Chinese student who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square. We are the conscience of our country'. Ishay Rosen-Zvi is one of them.

"I really think the real story of the occupation is there in the checkpoint. I cannot forget this kind of picture, you know, five in the morning, quarter to five in the morning? hundreds of people waiting, you know, to pass? the checkpoint. And you're standing there. And you see their eyes? the humiliation, the frustration, the hatred.

"Then you are the occupation. You have all the power, they have no power".

Rami Elhanan is one Israeli father who knows about suicide bombing. On September 4th 1997, his daughter, Smadar, was killed by one. She was 14 years old. Rami's daughter was shopping with two friends, one of whom was killed, the other seriously injured in the attack.

Rami is a graphic designer and a former soldier. His father survived Auschwitz, but his grandparents, six aunts and uncles perished in the Holocaust.

John Pilger asked Rami, "How do you distinguish the feelings of anger that any father would have felt at losing your daughter in such circumstances?"

"I'm not crazy. I don't forget. I don't forgive. Someone who murders little girls, anyone who murders little girls, is a criminal and should be punished.

"But if you think from the head and not from the gut, and you look what made people do what they do - people that don't have hope, people who are desperate enough to commit suicide, you have to ask yourself have you contributed in any way for this despair? For this craziness? It hasn't come out of the blue: the boy whose mother was humiliated, in the morning, at the checkpoint, will commit suicide in the evening.

"The suicide bomber was a victim - the same as my girl was. Of that I am sure.

"You have to understand where this suicide bombers come from. Understanding is part of the way to solving the problem."

 

[ouizy]

Before replying to this, I discussed the topic with someone more versed in this subject than me, as I really wanted to inquire more about historical facts, than opinions.

The indigenous people of Palestine were Cananites. Palestine only became a real word during the reign of the Ottoman empire. nobody even identified themselves as Palestinian until the 1950s. Before that they were simply considered Arabs. The land of Israel was a Jewish state beginning about 1,000 years B.C. The Jews only dispersed in the year 70 AD because they were defeated by the Romans. The area did become controlled by Muslims around 700 AD or so and was part of the Ottoman empire.

The Arabs never claimed that Israel is theirs because they were indigenous people--they claimed it as an Islamic land. Muhammed wasn't even born until the 600s, which makes their claim really ridiculous.

In addition, Jews did not start going to Israel after WWII. Jews gradually started going back to Israel after the Spanish Inquisition in 1492. The big immigration started in the 1880s and 90s. The British who took control of the region after WWI promised the Jews a homeland in Israel. The Arabs were so upset, they ended up siding with Hitler.

The problem right now is that the Palestinians and Arabs agreed to negotiate for a final settlement peacefully and ended up w/ a deal that would give them 95% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and a capital in part of Jerusalem. That wasn't good enough for them so then they started up again with the violence.

It seems one side is "re-negging" on an agreement, and is doing so by blowing up innocent people. I think we all agree the violence has to stop, however, to base claims on a land that never rightfully belonged to a group of people is incorrect.

This reminds me of a story I recently saw about a skull and bones that were found on the west coast of the US. It is believed by scientists that the bones actually predated those of the Native Americans. This would mean that the argument that the Anglo-Saxons took the land from the Native Americans was not accurate as there was a people here years before the Native Americans. As it turned out, the Native Americans won a lawsuit that immediately replced the bones into the ground and was covered up by the US Army Corps of Engineers, before it could have been proven that they were not the original settlers here.

If Mohammed was born in the 600's, what basis do the Palestinians have for justifying that they were the original habitants of that land?

 

[nbcrusader]

Quote:
Israeli soldiers enforcing the illegal occupation of Palestinian land

I think this highlights the fact that even a well-known respected journalist approaches the Israel-Palestine issue with a bias. Mr. Pilger is not a judge nor has the power to declare what is illegal.

I believe we should start, as Ouizy?s post suggests, with a greater understanding of the historical context of the current situation. It is a far greater value in understanding the current conflict that various antidotal accounts.

If anything, this thread, and Ouizy?s posts, have prompted me to study the history of the region in greater detail.

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

i think the main fact is that the area used to be occupied by a mix of muslims and jews. there were however more muslims than jews and technically the area was under muslim control. most israeli's living in israel right now are not NATIVE peoples, they are european immigrants. therefore the palestinians being NATIVE and not from other places in the middle east have more claim to the land regardless of the actual ownage.
looking at history you can also deduct that the british gave land they did not own to the Jewish people. who are the british to promise jews a piece of land in the middle east they did not even own?
the british overlooked the fact that the area, even though being barren, was inhabited by people. they just thought of the area as this empty place they can repay the jews with after the extreme antisematism occuring in the europe and the highlight of that, the holocaust. you can even be more cynical and say that the british gave the jews israel because they wanted them out of europe.

this issue runs a lot deeper than religion.

 

[ouizy]

they just thought of the area as this empty place they can repay the jews with after the extreme antisematism occuring in the europe and the highlight of that, the holocaust.

agreed.

...you can even be more cynical and say that the british gave the jews israel because they wanted them out of europe.

doubtful.

 

[joyfulgirl]

I think this highlights the fact that even a well-known respected journalist approaches the Israel-Palestine issue with a bias. Mr. Pilger is not a judge nor has the power to declare what is illegal.

The U.N. has repeatedly, year after year, declared the occupation illegal.

 

[STING2]

Cannibalisticartist,

It is a fact that an area of land that now has over 7 million people only had 400,000 back in 1890. I'm refering to Israel/Palestine. In 1890, Israel/Palestine was OWNED by the Ottoman Empire! The land was over 90% Muslim, but there were significant number of Jews and Christians. The Ottoman Empire approved Jewish emigration all the way until its end in World War I. Going back to the population level in 1890, 400,000, what this means is that most of the land was unoccupied. Certainly a Palestinian, Christian, Jew had a right to their house or business and the land it was on, but what about all that empty land to the south or certain area's on the coast, that would be government land, the government being the Ottoman Empire!

At the end of World War I the Ottoman Empire was no more. Suddenly there was no government or country. Certainly indviduals have a right to the land that live on, where their house or business would be, but most the land in the area was unoccupied land formely owned by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The end of the Ottoman Empire meant that unoccupied formely Ottoman government land became available to ANYONE willing to colonize it.

The British may not of handled the situation from 1917 to 1947 in the best way, but the fact of the matter is, in the absense of the Ottoman Empire, states had to be formed in this area, and certainly Jews, as well as Muslims and Christians had every right to create their own states based on the land they were living on. Why should any Jew be forced to live in a Muslim state when he has been living on certain land all his life. The UN compromise of 1948 was fair and gave the Jews the land they were living on and the "Palestinians" the land they were living on. The Israely state was cut into 3 parts and the "Palestinian state was fully connected. A fair agreement that Israel accepted. The "Palestinians" and 5 Arab countries did not and brutally invaded Israel to wipe it from the face of the earth on the first day of its independence.

In the diffucult fighting that followed, despite the odds against them, the Jewish soldiers pushed the Arab invaders back and did come into possession of more land than the original UN agreement. More than 70% of the Muslims living on this land left before the Jews arrived. Only 10% were kicked out of their houses by Jews. Of Course this fact has been falsly extrapolated to include all the Muslims living there along with the myth that all Jews arrived in Israel in 1948 and literally took over the homes of Muslims.

15% of Muslims stayed and today form 20% of the people in the land Israel legally owns. These Muslims today are the only Muslims that live in the region in a true democracy. Arab women have more rights and better access to education in Israel than any Arab country in the world! The West Bank and Gaza(taken control of in the 1967 war) are a different story but it should be noted that Israel has agreed to withdraw from these territories once a peace treaty is signed, just like they did with Egypt back in 1979. Israel has NEVER annexed the West Bank and Gaza and has no intention of doing so. Non-violent action and peaceful negotiation or the only tools that have the chance of accomplishing Palestinians goals of statehood.

Terrorist bombings by Palestinians are almost never directed against IDF soldiers on the West Bank and Gaza, but are directed against targets like Teens in Disco's perhaps listening to U2. SICK terribly SICK, and equally stupid as well! Rather than reducing the number of IDF soldiers on the West Bank and Gaza, the terrorist bombings have only led to a massive increase 5 fold and perhaps more of IDF troops in the occupied territories! It has led to strict curfews. In addition the terrorist choose to base themselves in heavily populated area's meaning that any attempt to bring them to justice has the potential to create civilian losses among the people they are supposedly trying to defend. There are many area's outside of the refugee camps in the hills that the terrorist could base themselves, but they choose to cowardly hide behind the people they claim to defend much like terrorist in other parts of the world.

Israel is a democracy and a country of laws as is the USA. Its this fact about the USA that helped lead the civil rights movement for African Americans to victory in the USA. You think the Palestinians have it rough, think about what African Americans have had to go through to achieve civil rights. Yet, they succeeded in their goals with non-violent action because the US laws, government, and population were suceptible to such action unlike dictatorships. Non-violent action is the only way Palestinians will succeed in their goals as well. Israel is a democracy with a well educated citizenry and would respond in kind to non-violent action and peaceful negotiation, but it does take time and patience, but its the only way Palestinians can achieve their goals. Bombing a disco filled with teens listening to U2 has no chance of helping to achieve a Palestinian state. Someone with intelligence needs to take charge in Palestine so they may eventually achieve a state of their own through non-violent action and stop the DUMB boneheaded use of suicide bombings killing innocent women and childern that accomplishes nothing and has been a total failure in helping to achieve a Palestinian State.

I should remind people here that fighting in urban situations can produce unintended civilian losses including those of childern. The IDF does not target women and childern or any innocent civilian unlike Palestinian terrorist who do just that in Israel. Gruesome pictures that many talked of here are the result of intense and confused urban fighting rather than executions. Just like the claims of a massacre at Jenin were false so are most of these claims of IDF abuses. There were claims by some Muslims and organizations that reached 7,000 dead in Jenin. After a complete investigation it was found that only 48 had died. This would not have happened if the terrorist had 1. given up 2. not decided to base themselves in the center of a refugee camp.

 

[Pacotalica]

But if you think from the head and not from the gut, and you look what made people do what they do

So what exactly has made Israel do what they have done?

this issue runs a lot deeper than religion.

That line is dead on. This issue runs alot deeper then religion. Let us see if we can come close to how deep it is...

Not George Lucas has commented several times about what has happened to a friend of his....

Officially, that may be, but in reality, people are removed from their homes at gunpoint, simply for not being Jewish. It's a fact. It happened to a friend of mine. Nothing you say or do can change that.

Nothing can change that, but imagine if you will what it would be like to be removed from your home at gun point, seperated from your family, forced into slavery until you died or were simply killed, and your body thrown onto a pile of fellow people who had the samething happen to them and then your body burned in front of other prisoners. Imgaine being removed from your home just to be exterminated.

If you were to do a comparison; whatever wrongs the Israelies have commited against Palistinians since the British gave them Israel (even if it wasn't the theirs to give) is a spec of dust in comparison to the atrocities commited against the Jewish people. Violent acts that have been going on for centuries, against them.

In truth there is virtually no period in history where the Jews have not been persicuted. With exception of the spread of Christianity when Judaism was more accepted, they have never known an extended period of peace. You would be hard press to find a place where they are truely accepted. And lets not forget or deny the Holocost. That nearly brought the extinction of their entire people. And they have endured the atrocities time and time and time and time again. They have always stayed strong and kept faith in their religion and their beilefs. For some it was the promise of the Holy land that kept them going. The promise of a land where they could be at peace. So it is something much deeper then simple dirt or space they are fighting for.

Now with all that being said, I in no way justify what Israel is doing to Palestine. My point is not to justify but to understand why they would do such a thing. I believe it is ethicly wrong to forcibly remove people from their homes or hunt them down for sport, but far worse has been do to the people of Israel.

A good analogy of the possible roots to this situation is an abused child that grows up to abuse his chidren. Hate is something learned and their have been countless times when the Jews have been experienced nothing but hate. Maybe they are taking actions that they have experienced before?

As it stands now both Israel and Palistine have legitamate claims to that land. Britian, America and most of Europe holds a large share of the responsibility for what is going on in the middle east. The UN has an obligation to step help both sides reach a reasonable compromise that will make both sides happy so now people have to die out there. To be honest it doesn't matter where the Jewish people wish to settle, I think the whole world owes it to them to at least share.

I don't mean to offend anyone or justify anything. I was simply trying to understand why things are happening there.

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

STING, when the Jews wanted to start a nation of Israel, they did not consult the other people that lived there, they asked the british, who did not care about the region one bit and declared the place theirs when people were already living there. that's just not fair.
did you know that different places were offered the the Jews to make a nation of Israel? i don't recall the name, but a place in Africa was proposed by a british Jew. this was a matter of the british playing around with land that they occupied by force or by chance, and they had no care in the world for the people that already lived there.
believe it or not, the settlements were sucessful at first, but then the mass immigration after the holocaust made things shift to bad. these were educated, white, european Jews coming from places like russia and having to live with brown, muslim peasants. they were just not used to living in these situations. the Europeans were used to buying/selling land and property. these peasants were used to barter and inheritance. there was a HUGE error is communication.
even though i do not believe the formation of Israel to be pure colonization, you have to understand these poor peasants probably believed it to be this way. Even The original indegnious Jews were also against this mass immigration but they were peasants too, and were overpowered.

 

[U2Bama]

Practically speaking, suicide bombing is an effective way of getting rid of invaders.

I would like to request some clarification from you on this statement.

Are you saying that suicide bombing will influence the Israelis to pull out of occupied areas, thus getting rid of the invaders? If so, it doesn't seem to be effective to this point.

Or, are you saying that blowing up kids in a disco or diners in a pizza restaurant is likely to remove some invading Israelis from existence, thus getting rid of invaders? Who are the suicide bombers to know for certain that all, or most, of the patrons of Sabarro and the disco had settled in occupied areas?

Thanks.

~U2Alabama

 

[U2Bama]

Some more clarification I need to ask of Not George Lucas and joyfulgirl:

Not George Lucas tells us that Palestine has no military or police force:

Nine-tenths of Palestinians killed by the Israelis are civilians;

If Palestine has no army, then wouldn't ALL of the Palestinians who are killed by the Israelis be classified as "civilians"?

Okay, secondly, the Palestinians do have a local security force that operates under the Palestinian Authority, of which Yasser Arafat is the chairman. Obviously, it is not a military of the standards of Israel, but it is a police force and sometimes they do take action in bringing in responsible terrorists. They are too selective in doing so.

~U2Alabama

 

[V Nura]

I will say just the following on the topic and I will leave it alone.




1.) the problems in palestine arent' just the fault of the israelis...other than criticizing the US and trying to kill US civilians the arab world hasn't lifted a finger to help the palestinian ppl..the only country in the mid east that lets palestinians settle there is jordan..A US ally.


2.) Ariel Sharon is a war criminal...and a pathetic excuse fora man...let alone a leader.


3.) arafat...may comdemn terror attacks....but..I can do that too from my home in NY.....the man doesn't do jack. ...he's by far worse than sharon..and that's not a weak statement



4.) I have a lot of sympathy for palestinians...but they have to realize that terror bombings aren't helping things at all...it's only setting back the establishment of teh palestinian state and progress for the ppl of palestine


5.) Israel needs to comply with UN resolutions. But honestly..those lands captured in 1967....were taken in a war..and if you fight a war..you run the risk of losing land. prior to the conflict in 1967...the arab world opnely declared its intent to eliminate israelis by means of genocide. But like I said...israel needs to comply with the resolutions...not cos it's right but because it's part of the peace process.