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Old 04-03-2003, 04:54 PM   #91
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I also understand your point, however:

Quote:
However, firstly I would defend the Palestinian's right to choose their own leader and if they choose to be led by Arafat then it is none of my business to tell them otherwise.
None of our business indeed, but to place blame on Israel for the Palestinian's troubles simply is not fair.
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Old 04-03-2003, 05:05 PM   #92
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ouizy:

It should not be about blaming Israel for Palestinian's trouble but to show Israel that the violations of human rights done by their police and military are seen in the western world and more than that it would be helpful if israels friends would use their influence to help the palestinan's who's only guilt it is their race are not treated like 2nd class people.

I have no problem if they punish terrorists, but punishing the complete family or even the whole city - that's sick

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Old 04-03-2003, 05:34 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
I have no problem if they punish terrorists, but punishing the complete family or even the whole city - that's sick
A terrorist does not wake up one morning thinking "I'd like to kill some civilians today". At some level, it is a community effort.

The first step to peace begins with the end to terrorism. Unfortunately, there are too many groups that tacitly approve of the continued attacks.
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Old 04-03-2003, 05:56 PM   #94
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nbcrusader:

that's all true - but you can't fight terrorism by creating such a "colateral damage" you give the terrorists exactly what they need to recute new ones - HATE.

Sharon and Arafat need each other - only the reaction of the other one feeds the hate they need for their regime
This has nothing to do with the people in Israel or the people in Palestina, i've met verry nice people from both sides.

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Old 04-03-2003, 08:00 PM   #95
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Ouizy,
First of all- Israel doesn't have to say, "screw peace, and screw you"... He shows it when one of his soldiers shoots at an old woman on her way for a kidney operation..... Or, when a father is trying to protect his 8 yr. old from bullets coming from +10 IDF soldiers.... He also shows it when he doesn't investigate why a peace protester was crushed by one of his bulldozers....

I think we all know that Arafat is a worthless piece of interference, THAT IS WHY HE IS LEAVING POWER . However, how can Arafat have control over his own people when Palestine doesn't have it's own state.... no police, no water, no schools, no infrastructure... It is like telling someone to take a written exam, with nothing to write with...
I'm not trying to defend Arafat, but, the problem to this situation goes beyond Arafat....
Palestine doesn't have an army.. they've got civilians who are handling the physicology of this opression at different levels...
What they need is space, a better leader, water, education, land, and freedom of not being held at gun point every time they leave their house.... This opression drives people mad...

I'm not justifying sucide bombings.... But, it is sad on how the people of palestine can't speak about what they are going through... the only way they get attention is out of these suicide bombings... ITS SICK... but this is reality.... We need to realize that in order to stop these suicide bombings,yes, we need to get read of the fatty Arafat, but guess what, there is another villin in the picture... Sharon... This guy has given the ok of killing so many innocent civilians in Lebanon, and the West Bank (innocent, babies, women, kids)... This guy is know for his terrorism.. But, everyone keeps hush hush about it..
O,Arun, about what you said, "The idf killings in the mosque were inconsequential to the rejection of the peace deal.", how do you know this? Why would this be inconsequential....
THINK ABOUT IT, even if Arafat was to totally cooperate, a situation like this would shift things...

Arun, i'm going to find a website for you to look at about the mosque...
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Old 04-03-2003, 08:36 PM   #96
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Arun, you can look at this website, http://pd.cpim.org/2001/april08/april8_israel.htm
-its not the best web site... but, i'll look further on

Back at home, i've got a book that describes some of the situations that were occuring while the peace process was going on... It described Sharon's cruel visit to the west bank, during the time of the peace accords...
The book is called, "The Arab-Israeli Conflict"? I think... I need to go back home to check on it... I'm at my school at the moment , but, I'll look back on the book...
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Old 04-03-2003, 08:58 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amna
Arun, you can look at this website, http://pd.cpim.org/2001/april08/april8_israel.htm
-its not the best web site... but, i'll look further on

Back at home, i've got a book that describes some of the situations that were occuring while the peace process was going on... It described Sharon's cruel visit to the west bank, during the time of the peace accords...
The book is called, "The Arab-Israeli Conflict"? I think... I need to go back home to check on it... I'm at my school at the moment , but, I'll look back on the book...
Amna...Sharon is not a man who I feel is capable of the same sort of openmindedness as rabin. he is a war criminal and needs to be tried.


the day he got elected...I knew things would get worse in the region before it got better.
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Old 04-03-2003, 09:16 PM   #98
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Resolution 1322: October 7, 2000 -- "Deplores the provocation carried out at Al-Haram Al-Sharif in Jerusalem on 28 September 2000, and the subsequent violence there and at other Holy Places. Condemns acts of violence, especially the excessive use of force against Palestinians, resulting in injury and loss of human life."
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Old 04-04-2003, 04:46 AM   #99
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nbcrusader:

Quote:
PUBLIC AI Index:
MDE 15/030/2003
UA 75/03 Medical concern / Detention without charge
17 March 2003

ISRAEL/OCCUPIED TERRITORIES Anan Nabih Labadeh, (m) aged 30

Amnesty International is seriously concerned for the health of Anan Nabih
Labadeh, who was arrested with his brother, Dr 'Abd al-Fatah Labadeh, by the
Israeli army on 11 March 2003. Anan Nabih Labadeh is paralysed from the waist
down and suffers from gastritis, bladder and skin problems, and is in constant
need of medical care. Dr 'Abd al-Fatah Labadeh was released after two days, but
Anan Nabih Labadeh remains in detention.

Both brothers were at home in Nablus when Israeli soldiers entered the house at
3am on 11 March and began ransacking it, apparently searching for a wanted
person whom they did not find. After a few hours, both brothers were pushed
into an army jeep; Anan Nabih Labadeh was still in his wheelchair. The soldiers
blindfolded them and tied their hands behind their backs. The soldiers
reportedly beat Anan Nabih Labadeh. Dr 'Abd al-Fatah Labadeh stated after his
release: "I could hear him crying out in pain after every hit - and I could see
the shadows of him being beaten through my blindfold - they were hitting him
all over, especially on his legs and back."

The brothers were taken to Huwara military camp near Nablus. They were made to
wait four hours, still blindfolded and handcuffed. They were then separated.
After two days, Dr 'Abd al-Fatah Labadeh was released without seeing his
brother again. No reasons were given for either his arrest or release. Anan
Nabih Labadeh remains in detention.

Dr Labadeh has described the detention conditions in Huwara: "There are about
nine cells in the prison. The one I was placed in measured approximately 3m by
3m, had no lights, no toilet and contained 6 other men. We had small, thin
mattresses which were wet as the cell was very damp. There was no heating, and
the cell was very closed. There were insufficient blankets to keep us all warm.
The only form of daylight was through a window which measured no more than 50cm
by 50cm. Whilst I was there, we were taken out of the cell 3 times, for about
10-15 minutes each. We were forced to urinate into bottles as there was no
toilet, and the only source of water was a small bottle, which was filled at
meal times... The sanitary conditions were very poor. We were unable to clean
the room, there were no drinking glasses and no water to wash with. Most of the
men had stomach problems such as constipation, stomach cramps and stomach acid."

Dr Labadeh is extremely concerned about the health of his brother if he
continues to be held in these conditions. Anan Nabih Labadeh needs different
types of specific medication. According to information received, Anan Nabih
Labadeh's wheelchair was taken away from him three days ago and he has been
lying down since. When he needs to go to the toilet, other detainees have to
help him. There is a risk of bed sores and infections.

BACKGROUND INFORMATION
Anan Nabih Labadeh has never been arrested before. He was injured in 1987,
during the first intifada, when he and a group of boys were fleeing Israeli
soldiers. The boys were attempting to jump from the roof of one building to
another. Anan fell down and sustained a spinal injury. His brother lives with
him to provide care, as he is confined to a wheelchair and needs assistance for
many everyday activities. Anan Nabih Labadeh has represented the Palestinian
National Disabled Teams in table-tennis and basketball.
This is a) unjust and b) grows terrorism.

As long as the Israel Government is willing to treat their enemies without caring for human rights and rather punish too many people than just the guilty ones they plant the demon seed...

Klaus
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Old 04-04-2003, 04:50 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally posted by ouizy
None of our business indeed, but to place blame on Israel for the Palestinian's troubles simply is not fair.
Israel is occupying Palestine - I think those are good grounds for blaming the Israeli state for a number of problems faced by the Palestinian people.
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Old 04-04-2003, 05:23 AM   #101
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Another short article which shows what's really unfair.

Quote:
Israeli Army Strikes at Palestinians; 7 Are Shot to Death
By JAMES BENNET

ERUSALEM, April 3 In a series of military strikes in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israeli forces killed seven Palestinians today, and soldiers blocked more than 1,000 Palestinian men and boys from returning home for a second day as the army scoured a refugee camp for wanted men.

And on the outskirts of East Jerusalem, sending up clouds of dust, the Israeli authorities used jackhammers and backhoes to crush more than a dozen Palestinian homes and other buildings that they said lacked permits. Palestinians said the permits were prohibitively expensive and difficult to obtain.
Advertisement


In the refugee camp, in the West Bank city of Tulkarm, the army said that on Wednesday it summoned all male residents between the ages of 15 and 45 to appear in the camp's center, where they were detained and interrogated one by one.

Those deemed innocent were placed on trucks and sent to another camp, where they were released and instructed not to return home for three days, the army said.

The action came after a suicide bomber from a village near Tulkarm struck the Israeli town of Netanya on Sunday, killing himself and wounding three dozen others.

The army said the action would help it screen wanted men from the innocent. "If they didn't come forward, they probably have something to hide," Maj. Sharon Feingold, an army spokeswoman, said today.

Palestinians in Tulkarm said today that as many as 3,000 men and boys as young as 13 had been rounded up. They said soldiers had threatened them with punishment if they did not appear at the collection point, a girls' school.

Ramzi Abu Atiyeh, 20, said that after being interrogated, he was loaded onto a truck with about 50 others and dropped near the other camp, Nur Shams. "They dropped us there and told us not to return for three days," he said. "We didn't know what we were going to do."

He said strangers in the camp had given him a place to sleep. He and other Palestinians said roads back into their own camp had been blocked by barbed wire or soldiers.

Another man staying in Nur Shams, who gave his age as 35, said he had been forced to leave behind six children, aged 3 months to 11 years, as well as his wife, sister and mother. "My body is here, and my mind is there," he said. "My kids need their father."

He said he was reluctant to give his name for fear of Israeli reprisal, but then identified himself as Muhammad Tawfiq.

"This is a nightmare," he said.

The army said it had made no provision for those without places to stay. It said the soldiers had arrested 13 Palestinians in the Tulkarm camp.

The United Nations agency that administers Palestinian refugee camps said Israeli forces had broken into and used one of its girls' schools to detain Palestinians. Peter Hansen, the commissioner general of the agency, called the move "a violation of international legal norms." The army did not immediately respond.

The operation in Tulkarm, which was still under way tonight, was one of several unfolding throughout a violent day in the West Bank and Gaza.

At the southern edge of the Gaza Strip before dawn, Israeli tanks and bulldozers supported by helicopters raided the Rafah refugee camp in what the army described as an effort to find and destroy weapons-smuggling tunnels. The army said its forces had come under attack and had shot back.

Palestinians in Rafah said that four men had been killed, but that only one had been armed. Rami Zanoun, 19, who was recovering today from shrapnel wounds to one leg, said a helicopter had fired a missile at him and three friends as they sat outside observing the raid.

Four soldiers were wounded when a bomb burst beneath a tank. The forces did not find any tunnels, but demolished at least four houses. The army has destroyed dozens of homes in Rafah, saying they are used to hide entryways to tunnels or as sniper positions.

Later in the day and farther north, Israeli soldiers opened fire on two Palestinians who the army said had entered an off-limits area and appeared to be planting something that might have been an explosive. Palestinian authorities said the men were farmers picking vegetables.

The army said soldiers had called on the men to halt, then shot into the air as they ran, and then shot them when they still failed to stop.

No explosives were found. The army said the men had been wounded but still alive when they were turned over to a Palestinian ambulance, but a doctor at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City said later that one of them had died. He identified the man as Eyad Elyan, 26.

In the West Bank city of Qalqilya, soldiers on an overnight search late Wednesday for a man planning a suicide bombing shot and killed a 14-year-old boy who opened his door to watch them, Palestinians said. The army said the boy had tried to run away and ignored calls to stop and warning shots before soldiers fired at him.

The army said that in the last 24 hours it had stopped three would-be suicide bombers, including the one in Qalqilya.

In Nablus, in the West Bank, soldiers shot and killed Khaled Rayyan, 28, a local leader of the Islamic militant group Hamas. His wife, Salam, told The Associated Press that Mr. Rayyan had been killed when he tried with a pistol to attack the troops who were pursuing him.

In Sur Bahir, on the outskirts of Jerusalem, earth-moving machines arrived at dawn and, under military guard, worked until dusk destroying more than a dozen houses and other buildings, some of which appeared to be new or under construction.

The Israeli authorities accuse Arabs of building hundreds of illegal homes in Jerusalem. Arab residents of Jerusalem accuse Israeli Jews of seeking to drive them out of the city.

Nidal Ali Atoun, 31, a laborer, said he had spent more than $62,000 and was still working on his new two-story house when the wrecking crew arrived without warning today.

"They don't give permits here," he said, as the clattering machines pancaked his house. "It's hatred."
A army which forces 15 Jear old boys not to come home for at least 3 days - if they do they are terrorists?
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Old 04-04-2003, 10:06 AM   #102
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Thankyou Klaus, I'm glad you have put these articles on the post...
Your points are well taken, rather then just saying out of the ass that you are against what Sharon gov't and IDF are doing... You are delivering good facts and stories of the social situation which has driven the people of the West Bank into living in a death camp.

This is conflict has very little to do with relgion... It has more to do with the corrupt Israeli gov't that has supressed its own people including the people of the West Bank....
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Old 04-04-2003, 01:47 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


Israel is occupying Palestine - I think those are good grounds for blaming the Israeli state for a number of problems faced by the Palestinian people.
Well this takes us full circle to the beginning of the debate.

What or where is "Palestine?"
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