The (illegal) American Dream

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There's always someone willing to lend money they will have a hard time recouping, the potential rewards are huge

No sooner than Western countries drop debts in Africa for example, and the Chinese are right there willing to loan out huge amounts of money
 
MrBrau1 said:
Wonderful. The US housing market is circling the toilet and about to go "bye, bye."

The market is overpriced, much like the irrational exuberance associated with tech stocks seven years ago. It's long overdue for a correction.

As for the article regarding banks pitching loans to illegal immigrants, it's most certainly illegal. But since when has a Republican ever actually enforced laws against a corporation? The Bush Administration's idea of "punishment" in the Microsoft antitrust trial was providing coupons. :rolleyes:
 
Illegal aliens should be deported and not given any benefits whatsoever - they only put a strain on the resources of the U.S.

There's absolutely no reason why a citizen of a democratic country can't apply to emmigrate to another democratic country through proper channels.

For example, there's a US embassy and consulate in Mexico, isn't there? Why can't the people just apply for a visa or passport? It's the simplist thing in the world - that's how my family came from Canada to Israel.....we certainly didn't need to stow away in an airplane or on a ship to get here.

What kind of life is it for the illegals who are living in poverty spending their days looking over their shoulders afraid to get discovered? If they want a better life for themselves then let them go through the normal immigration process- what's the big deal?
 
AchtungBono said:
they only put a strain on the resources of the U.S.

This is false. Listening to O'Reiley does not make one an expert on the U.S. economy, actually it probably has quite the opposite effect. There are many industries that survive on cheap labor, how is it a strain on these industries?


AchtungBono said:

There's absolutely no reason why a citizen of a democratic country can't apply to emmigrate to another democratic country through proper channels.

For example, there's a US embassy and consulate in Mexico, isn't there? Why can't the people just apply for a visa or passport? It's the simplist thing in the world - that's how my family came from Canada to Israel.....we certainly didn't need to stow away in an airplane or on a ship to get here.

What kind of life is it for the illegals who are living in poverty spending their days looking over their shoulders afraid to get discovered? If they want a better life for themselves then let them go through the normal immigration process- what's the big deal?

It's really that easy isn't it?:| How easy do you think it is for a person living in poverty to afford the proper route to establish citizenship? Or work visa? Please, do tell...
 
^ Nah BVS, it's wicked easy. I mean, if it was hard to do I'm sure people would feel the need to enter illegally, chance getting caught, get screwed over & sold into slavery/prostitution in exchange for help entering the country.

Oh wait, they do that. And I'm sure it's free too. Or maybe not.

Something tells me the process of emigrating from Canada to Israel might be just a tad different than from Mexico to the US.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


This is false. Listening to O'Reiley does not make one an expert on the U.S. economy, actually it probably has quite the opposite effect. There are many industries that survive on cheap labor, how is it a strain on these industries?




It's really that easy isn't it?:| How easy do you think it is for a person living in poverty to afford the proper route to establish citizenship? Or work visa? Please, do tell...

As for industries relying on cheap labor.....to me they are no better than those who took advantage of the slave labor in WWII that was available to them just to make a buck.

As for affording it.....the same way they can afford to live as they do now - only LEGALLY. I think that everyone deserves the chance to make a decent and honest living as long as they don't do it at anyone else's expense.....surely you can agree with that.

The immigrants who pay a lot of money to be herded into windowless, airless vans and smuggled across the border can use that same money to go through the legal system of immigration.......

.......and this has nothing to do with my hero......
 
AchtungBono said:


As for industries relying on cheap labor.....to me they are no better than those who took advantage of the slave labor in WWII that was available to them just to make a buck.
I'm not arguing the morality of the issue. You said, "they only put a strain" and that's just simply false. They do A LOT of the jobs that you and I wouldn't imagine doing.

AchtungBono said:

As for affording it.....the same way they can afford to live as they do now - only LEGALLY. I think that everyone deserves the chance to make a decent and honest living as long as they don't do it at anyone else's expense.....surely you can agree with that.

The immigrants who pay a lot of money to be herded into windowless, airless vans and smuggled across the border can use that same money to go through the legal system of immigration.......

Where are you getting your information? "The same they can afford to live as they do now - only legally"?:huh: That doesn't even make sense. If it was that easy they'd all be legal.

"Pay a lot of money to be hearded"? Once again :huh: where do you get this?
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

I'm not arguing the morality of the issue. You said, "they only put a strain" and that's just simply false. They do A LOT of the jobs that you and I wouldn't imagine doing.


Where are you getting your information? "The same they can afford to live as they do now - only legally"?:huh: That doesn't even make sense. If it was that easy they'd all be legal.

"Pay a lot of money to be hearded"? Once again :huh: where do you get this?

Perhaps I expressed myself the wrong way....sometimes I don't articulate my feelings very well in writing...let me try again....

If a person is in the country illegally, their opportunities to find good jobs and make a decent living is very limited (to say the least). As you say, they do a lot of the menial(sp?) tasks that "regular" folks wouldn't. The fact is, if they were here legally then they could look for decent jobs in their own professions - teachers could be teachers, cooks could be cooks, drivers could be drivers...etc. That's why I said that they could afford to come to the states if they went through the normal system of immigration and looked for work in a normal profession.

And..yes....I've seen news items about vans that were found at the US border with the people inside herded like cattle after paying money to so-called "contractors" who took their money and basically left them for dead......and I got this from the news - I didn't make it up.
 
AchtungBono said:


If a person is in the country illegally, their opportunities to find good jobs and make a decent living is very limited (to say the least). As you say, they do a lot of the menial(sp?) tasks that "regular" folks wouldn't. The fact is, if they were here legally then they could look for decent jobs in their own professions - teachers could be teachers, cooks could be cooks, drivers could be drivers...etc. That's why I said that they could afford to come to the states if they went through the normal system of immigration and looked for work in a normal profession.

But you're not getting it. It's not easy and affordable to a lot of these people to become citizens. Their move in one out of desperation, they often don't have the time and resources to become citizens. You seem to keep ignoring that.


AchtungBono said:

And..yes....I've seen news items about vans that were found at the US border with the people inside herded like cattle after paying money to so-called "contractors" who took their money and basically left them for dead......and I got this from the news - I didn't make it up.

Yes there are these stories and it's very unfortunate, and often rare. But what you don't get is these folks aren't spending nearly the amount they would need to in order to be here legally, and most of the time it's not the immigrants paying these contractors, it's farmers hiring them or family members that have already made it over in order to bring the rest of their family over.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


But you're not getting it. It's not easy and affordable to a lot of these people to become citizens. Their move in one out of desperation, they often don't have the time and resources to become citizens. You seem to keep ignoring that.




Yes there are these stories and it's very unfortunate, and often rare. But what you don't get is these folks aren't spending nearly the amount they would need to in order to be here legally, and most of the time it's not the immigrants paying these contractors, it's farmers hiring them or family members that have already made it over in order to bring the rest of their family over.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "affordable". I'm not familiar with the immigration process in the US, I can only go by my own family's experience. Does it cost money to become an American citizen? Besides, I believe that a person can only become a citizen after living in the US five years, is that true? If so, then they can enter the country on a "resident alien" visa or some other kind of work program (such as getting a "green card") and then working their way in order to pay the fee for citizenship.

Sorry if I sound dumb, I'd like to understand and I'd be glad if you could enlighten me on the process.
 
I wonder how many people have any idea of the time, complication, and cost involved in maintaining "legal" status. Last week, we had a friend over to my house who is considering becoming one of our roommates. As we chatted, he told us more about his story. He's original from a poor country in Africa. He applied to the U.S. green card lottery, which is exactly what it sonds like. You PAY for the chance to get a shot at a green card. I believe the fees when he did it were around $300 USD, which may sound cheap enough but consider that in a poor country that could be an entire year's wages. His family and extended familiy all pitched in to cover the cost. Then he was lucky enough to be one of the very few that were selected to interview. Then it gets to an even smaller group that were actually given a green card. Oh, and that application/interview process cost money too, "administrative fees". He gets to the US and starts work but also finds that the path to citizenship is not easy, simple or cheap. So what does he do? He sells that most essential of human things, a chance on his life. He joined the US military, and for the privelege of using his body for target practice, he was granted citizenship at the end of his tour. Identured servitude is still with us. :|

He's one of the lucky ones actually. But this whole thing took 7 odd years. Now he's trying to get on with his life, finish his degree, get married, start a family. All of the things other people his age have already done.

Don't even get me started on all of the complications involved in maintaining your legal status and understanding all of the laws and legalese that goes with it. You pretty much have to hire an immigration lawyer to make sure you don't accidentally screw things up and lose your shot at ever being allowed back into the country. That costs money too.

You need to always remember when talking about visa issues that there is a system of discrimination being enforced. If you're from a developed country, your application is processed quickly and with much more ease. From a poor country, you may as well forget it. They don't want you, and you're treated like a second-class human.
 
Re: Re: The (illegal) American Dream

Ormus said:


The market is overpriced, much like the irrational exuberance associated with tech stocks seven years ago. It's long overdue for a correction.

:

Agreed.
 
AchtungBono said:


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "affordable". I'm not familiar with the immigration process in the US, I can only go by my own family's experience. Does it cost money to become an American citizen? Besides, I believe that a person can only become a citizen after living in the US five years, is that true? If so, then they can enter the country on a "resident alien" visa or some other kind of work program (such as getting a "green card") and then working their way in order to pay the fee for citizenship.

Sorry if I sound dumb, I'd like to understand and I'd be glad if you could enlighten me on the process.

Here's a thread that has some good info, it jumps off subject a lot, but there's some good info:

http://forum.interference.com/showt...15&highlight=citizen application&pagenumber=1

There's time, there's establishing residency, application fees, vaccinations and other medical expenses, legal consultation, etc. Most who of the hardline "send them out of the country" crowd are ignorant of these facts and think it's quite easy and cheap to become a citizen, I find that to be quite disturbing.
 
What do people think of the bill being floated on the Senate floor? A few of the key provisions:

"...a temporary guest worker program that sets up three two-year stints for workers provided they return to their home country for a year in between each work period. Temporary workers who bring family members are permitted only one two-year work period.

A minimum of 400,000 work visas will be distributed to immigrants per year with a ceiling of 600,000, something that rankles many unions. To that end, Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., will offer an amendment to reduce that number to 200,000, the same item passed overwhelmingly last year.

The centerpiece of the new legislation is a "Z-visa," to be offered to some 12 million illegals if they pay fines, learn English and return to their countries to file paperwork. That would set them on their way toward permanent residency. Many critics of this bill have zeroed in on the Z-visa provision, calling it amnesty.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274435,00.html
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


This is false. Listening to O'Reiley does not make one an expert on the U.S. economy, actually it probably has quite the opposite effect. There are many industries that survive on cheap labor, how is it a strain on these industries?

Obviously some companies large and small are profiting from illegal immigrant labor. But do you have evidence that illegal immigrants provide a net benefit economically, either to a state or the nation?
 
Bluer White said:
But do you have evidence that illegal immigrants provide a net benefit economically, either to a state or the nation?

Good question. The benefits of immigration are sometimes overstated.
 
Bluer White said:


Obviously some companies large and small are profiting from illegal immigrant labor. But do you have evidence that illegal immigrants provide a net benefit economically, either to a state or the nation?

I know for sure here in Texas that construction costs, commercial and residential increases anywhere from 5-10% when companies are forced to use legal labor.

When I was living in Chicago, the restaurant industry estimated costs would go up close to 15%, and that doesn't include a fluxuation in produce(for they are a viable source in our farms throughout the country), this was just the increase in wages for staff.
 
Bluer White said:
What do people think of the bill being floated on the Senate floor? A few of the key provisions:

"...a temporary guest worker program that sets up three two-year stints for workers provided they return to their home country for a year in between each work period. Temporary workers who bring family members are permitted only one two-year work period.

A minimum of 400,000 work visas will be distributed to immigrants per year with a ceiling of 600,000, something that rankles many unions. To that end, Sen. Jeff Bingaman, D-N.M., will offer an amendment to reduce that number to 200,000, the same item passed overwhelmingly last year.

The centerpiece of the new legislation is a "Z-visa," to be offered to some 12 million illegals if they pay fines, learn English and return to their countries to file paperwork. That would set them on their way toward permanent residency. Many critics of this bill have zeroed in on the Z-visa provision, calling it amnesty.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,274435,00.html
Mostly, I don't think it's likely to pass. But I think Reid is right to warn against the possibility of creating a 'permanent underclass' (through the temporary visas), and as for the $5000 pricetag that permanent residency would come with under the bill, that's far too high to be a realistic option for many.

At least it's a starting point for addressing the issue though.
 
sulawesigirl4 said:


You need to always remember when talking about visa issues that there is a system of discrimination being enforced. If you're from a developed country, your application is processed quickly and with much more ease. From a poor country, you may as well forget it. They don't want you, and you're treated like a second-class human.

Well said, Sula. :up: I'm more familiar with UK immigration than US, but this definitely applies here as well.
 
AchtungBono said:
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "affordable". I'm not familiar with the immigration process in the US, I can only go by my own family's experience. Does it cost money to become an American citizen? Besides, I believe that a person can only become a citizen after living in the US five years, is that true? If so, then they can enter the country on a "resident alien" visa or some other kind of work program (such as getting a "green card") and then working their way in order to pay the fee for citizenship.

Sorry if I sound dumb, I'd like to understand and I'd be glad if you could enlighten me on the process.

Israel is probably the least representative example of the typical immigration experience, merely because Israel accepts anyone that's Jewish.

Compare that to most other countries, particularly industrialized nations, that generally accept only those with highly specialized occupations (i.e., scientists, doctors, IT professions) or asylum cases. That's why in America, in particular, you generally only see two kinds of immigrants: those who work in highly educated scientific fields or the impoverished. Neither class of immigrant is especially popular here, because American corporations generally use the former to avoid paying higher wages to existing U.S. citizens, and the latter is scorned, because they are often a very visible symbol of poverty, low education, and, sometimes, crime.

Which brings me to my next point: the middle class in America and many other Western nations are, more or less, modern-day "serfs," forcefully bound to the country of their birth and can never successfully immigrate to another country. European Union nations, certainly, have some flexibility, as fellow EU nations are permitted to work freely in other EU nations. But if you're an average American citizen interested in opportunities outside your own nation, you're generally screwed. And that, I believe, is where some people get angry.

With all the cheap labor entering America, lowering our wages, we have no choice but to stay in America. As such, it is our national duty to ensure that our job market has sustainable jobs that pay real wages, because if this country turns into Mexico someday, economically, where wealth is heavily concentrated in a corrupt elite (the second wealthiest man in the world is in Mexico) and nearly everyone else lives in poverty with zero opportunities, we'll have to live with it or become illegal immigrants like everyone else.

That aside, a lot of people might be surprised that I support the general idea of "globalism." I just heavily oppose how its currently practiced. All it currently does is allow companies to outsource, while the rest of us still have to deal with customs duties and, like I said above, stay put in our own countries. I will be more favorable towards immigration only if there is a framework to allow workers as much freedom as we currently grant corporations; that is, I want as much freedom and flexibility to emigrate, live and work in other countries as we currently grant our corporations.
 
Ormus said:

That's why in America, in particular, you generally only see two kinds of immigrants: those who work in highly educated scientific fields or the impoverished. Neither class of immigrant is especially popular here, because American corporations generally use the former to avoid paying higher wages to existing U.S. citizens, and the latter is scorned, because they are often a very visible symbol of poverty, low education, and, sometimes, crime.

Regarding the H1-B technical workers, I believe the wage gap has narrowed in recent years as market conditions have changed. There are lots of six figure earning H1-Bs out there. It's not only American corporations who employ them, but also foreign based corporations with US operations.
 
AchtungBono said:

Does it cost money to become an American citizen? Besides, I believe that a person can only become a citizen after living in the US five years, is that true? If so, then they can enter the country on a "resident alien" visa or some other kind of work program (such as getting a "green card") and then working their way in order to pay the fee for citizenship.

It costs $400 to become a naturalized US citizen, and with the new fee proposal it will cost $675. In some cases, fee waivers are granted. A resident alien is a green card holder, and must be so for 5 years to be eligible for citizenship. Background checks, civics and English tests, and an interview must be passed. An exception to the 5 year rule is made for people who serve in the US military.
 
ntalwar said:


It costs $400 to become a naturalized US citizen, and with the new fee proposal it will cost $675. In some cases, fee waivers are granted. A resident alien is a green card holder, and must be so for 5 years to be eligible for citizenship. Background checks, civics and English tests, and an interview must be passed. An exception to the 5 year rule is made for people who serve in the US military.

But that doesn't include all other costs such as medical examinations and vaccinations, does it?
 
Additionally, those figures don't apply to current illegal immigrants hoping to attain longterm permanent residency.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070522.html

Z visa applicants will have to pay a $1,000 fine for heads of households and an additional $500 fine for each dependent (spouses and children). There will also be a processing fee of up to $1,500 and a $500 state impact assistance fee. The $1,000 is not the cost of the visa, but rather a fine for having broken the law. The processing fee will take care of the costs of the visa. The fines and fees are not the only hurdle – applicants must be employed, pass background checks, pay processing fees, and agree to meet accelerated English and civics requirements to get their Z visas.

A Z visa holder wishing to remain in the country under their Z visa indefinitely would still have to renew their visa every four years. Renewing the Z visa means more processing fees (again, up to $1,500 each time). The financial liability for Z visa holders starts to add up very quickly if holders choose to remain in this status instead of pursuing Legal Permanent Resident (LPR) status.
...................................................................................
[For LPR status], there is another $4,000 fine and more processing fees. More background checks are also conducted in order to make sure that the applicant has kept his or her record clean. The applicant will have had to have stayed employed and met the English and civics requirements. They will have to make an application from their home country, go to the back of the line, and demonstrate merit under the new green card points system. Then, and only then, will the undocumented worker obtain a green card.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:

But that doesn't include all other costs such as medical examinations and vaccinations, does it?

The $400 is strictly the N-400(naturalization) application fee.
It does not require the medical exam. The I-485 form fee (for permanent residence) is $395 not including additional medical costs.
 
Just chiming in here. I don't know what you'll make of this. Philippine citizens (Filipinos) require a visa to visit the US.
In order to do that, you pay the call center for an interview schedule which is likely about a month to two months depending on season. One also gets to pay 100usd for the application. There is of course no guarantee you can get one unless one is a seasoned traveller, businessman or a prominent person with good record.

Japanese citizens on the other hand are not required to have visitor's visa.

About half a century ago during WWII, the Philippines was the US no. 1 ally in Asia and have helped fought the Japanese at that time.

So here you have Filipinos who have always remained a good friend and ally of the US and yet has to apply, queue and pay to visit the US and then on the other side you have countries like Japan who has some bitter history with the U.S. I have nothing against Japan at all because the Philippines have remained friendly to its neighbors and have always been after that bitter war that reduced the Philippines to a pulp.

I just find this setup odd and to this date is questioned by a lot of Filipinos.
 
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