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Old 02-12-2007, 09:34 PM   #181
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The beauty of "moral" arguments is that they don't have to be set in stone
Moral arguements - not to include the basic moral arguments like, don't murder or steal. Everything else is up for grabs.

Oh yeah, those were supposedly written in stone. lol.
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Old 02-12-2007, 09:44 PM   #182
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So...80s or MadelynIris...you don't believe that it's intrinsically bad for your hypothetical 4-year-old daughter to know what and where her "vagina" is, then?

Because frankly I'm still unclear about that based on the responses.
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Old 02-12-2007, 09:49 PM   #183
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So...80s or MadelynIris...you don't believe that it's intrinsically bad for your hypothetical 4-year-old daughter to know what and where her "vagina" is, then?
Of course not. I'm all for the study of geomorphology. I guess describing what the Vagina Monologues is all about is where it would get tricky. And probably not suitable till much, much later in life. So, as impolite it might be for a 4 year to run around saying vagina, it's obviously much more impolite, and almost criminal for said 4 year old girl to discuss what the Vagina Monologues is all about.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomorphology
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:07 PM   #184
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Originally posted by yolland
So...80s or MadelynIris...you don't believe that it's intrinsically bad for your hypothetical 4-year-old daughter to know what and where her "vagina" is, then?

Because frankly I'm still unclear about that based on the responses.
Frankly, I'm unclear what makes you or anyone think that I would think it is "bad". Is it because I said I don't want her running around in public saying the word? If that's it, what kind of correlation can you draw that would bind those two ideas together?
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:07 PM   #185
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


Of course not. I'm all for the study of geomorphology. I guess describing what the Vagina Monologues is all about is where it would get tricky. And probably not suitable till much, much later in life. So, as impolite it might be for a 4 year to run around saying vagina, it's obviously much more impolite, and almost criminal for said 4 year old girl to discuss what the Vagina Monologues is all about.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomorphology
I thought this was another subtext to the minority viewpoint on this issue as well.

Perhaps the issue isn't so much with the word vagina itself but with the play.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:09 PM   #186
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Originally posted by MadelynIris


I'd love to go see the play. Why are you yelling at me to not go see the play?

Right, I'm just supporting the argument that it's ok to try and expose your children to things in their own good time. No big deal.

So, yeah, sometimes society throws stuff at you, and sometimes you wish they wouldn't. It's ok that you wish they wouldn't. It's ok that sometimes you feel they've gone too far. All you can do is state that fact and move on.

Thanks 80s.
The thanks goes to you, for stepping in in my defense.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:13 PM   #187
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And as Mrs. Springsteen pointed out...

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It's the name of the play, it's not any sort of titillating and/or gratuitous display of the word vagina for senseless purposes
But I say that is the whole point of naming the play by using the term "Vagina". The point is to make you say "Vawhata did that say"? It's not for senseless purpose, just promotional purposes.

Could the play been named something "more acceptable to society"? Yes, but wouldn't have the sensalitionism, nor the easy entry into the talk show circuit.

It's all about the O.
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:17 PM   #188
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Old 02-12-2007, 10:26 PM   #189
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
And as Mrs. Springsteen pointed out...



But I say that is the whole point of naming the play by using the term "Vagina". The point is to make you say "Vawhata did that say"? It's not for senseless purpose, just promotional purposes.

Could the play been named something "more acceptable to society"? Yes, but wouldn't have the sensalitionism, nor the easy entry into the talk show circuit.

It's all about the O.
Well if you've ever seen the play you would know how wrong your post is...
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:07 PM   #190
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Ok. Fair enough. I based it on what I read on the web site.

But using the word "Vagina" in the title definitely had that effect on me. I assume it had a similar effect on others. Definitely, caught my I. Help me understand how wrong I am.

BTW, the "It's all about the O" reference is not about the play, but the overstock.com commercial. Same thing... Using a phrase to sell the website that has nothing to do with the content.
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:07 PM   #191
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Originally posted by yolland
So...80s or MadelynIris...you don't believe that it's intrinsically bad for your hypothetical 4-year-old daughter to know what and where her "vagina" is, then?

Because frankly I'm still unclear about that based on the responses.
Not to speak for 80's but since earlier he said I correctly captured what he was trying to say, I'll forge ahead.

I think for him it's the chewing analogy. Both chewing your food and the word vagina are normal natural things. Neither should be displayed in public.

I'm not saying I agree, but I see the point he's trying to make. I do think it fails to take into account the vagina does not have ONLY sexual connotations. Kind of like the breastfeeding thread from awhile back. Those that view the vagina and breasts as strictly sexual may be more inclined to feel that such words etc shouldn't be "put forth" in "polite company." Just as one doesn't chew their food in polite company (in many cultures its considered rude to eat in front of other people, unless of course they are eating too, so I think the analogy stands--sort of)
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:12 PM   #192
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Except the chewing has nothing to do with sex eh?

Protocol, politeness, etiquette (sp?), etc...
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:25 PM   #193
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Frankly, I'm unclear what makes you or anyone think that I would think it is "bad". Is it because I said I don't want her running around in public saying the word? If that's it, what kind of correlation can you draw that would bind those two ideas together?
Yes, it's partly that, because the only other interpretation I could think of was that you believed a 4-year-old who knew the word as an unextraordinary body-part name might nonetheless start "going around saying it all over the place" (which to me read as 'saying it repeatedly,' not 'saying it publically') just because s/he saw it on a marquee. I guess maybe that really was more or less what you meant, but at the time that didn't seem plausible, so I went with the only other guess that made sense to me, which was that you simply felt "vagina" was not a suitable word for a 4-year-old to know. Then when you later raised the notion that seeing it on a marquee "causes me to have to confront the issue before I'm ready and before I feel my child is ready," that seemed to me to further confirm that the critical factor for you was age. I did of course notice that you repeatedly said you would talk to your children about body parts etc., but since you never specified age, I continued to figure that you saw that as the pivotal issue.

In short, I guess a connection that was crystal-clear to you between a child seeing the word in public and perhaps thus casually striking up a chat with the neighbors about 'my vagina' was simply not clear to me. Judging from several other posters' replies, I wasn't the only one who didn't see the connection. Now I'm not saying this to justify those responses which were taunting or baiting in tone, because that kind of thing is never justified (a point which I'm getting really tired of regularly making to no avail, but that's another topic). But, I do think several of us were simply genuinely, innocently confused as to what connection you were making, not imperiously "passing judgments" or anything of that sort. And I'm saying this as a parent who's giving their kids a traditional religious upbringing myself, so I don't think I'm tone-deaf to those kinds of concerns, 'social liberal' though I may be in the big picture. It just would never occur to me that because, say, my 8-year-old son (I'll use him as an example, since his siblings are too young to quickly recognize 'vagina' on a marquee) sees the word in print somewhere outside the house, he's suddenly going to lose all sense that you shouldn't go around talking about things like your genitals, nasal secretions, body odors or whatever.

I agree with MadelynIris about the play itself being a difficult one to explain to an older child (a younger child wouldn't even be interested, so that one's kinda moot, IMO), but that much I already stated in my first post in this thread. Children are always going to be coming to you with awkward questions about things they overheard, read in a novel or the newspaper--"Hey Dad, what's 'rape'?" and so forth. It's all just part of being a parent, for better and for worse.

I have seen the play, and even to another adult, it's difficult to describe. Yes, some of the skits are bawdy; some humorously play on the embarrassment many women feel in talking about their genitals and "female problems" (which several posters have alluded to); some are darkly tragic and focus on topics like gang rape during wartime, female genital mutilation, etc. My understanding is that she regularly creates new skits and cycles through old ones, so the version anyone else saw might not be the same one I did. Basically, it's about the particular kinds of vulnerabilities and humiliations that being a woman (and in particular, having a vagina, obviously) can entail, and the various ways that women transcend that (or don't). My words, not Eve Ensler's.
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:26 PM   #194
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
Ok. Fair enough. I based it on what I read on the web site.

But using the word "Vagina" in the title definitely had that effect on me. I assume it had a similar effect on others. Definitely, caught my I. Help me understand how wrong I am.

BTW, the "It's all about the O" reference is not about the play, but the overstock.com commercial. Same thing... Using a phrase to sell the website that has nothing to do with the content.
I realized the O comment

But using the word "Vagina" in the play is all about ownership. It's about not being ashamed, not having to whisper when using the word... This thread is actually a good peek into what this play is about.

Why is it so much easier for society to talk about penis issues than it is vagina issues?
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Old 02-12-2007, 11:38 PM   #195
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Except the chewing has nothing to do with sex eh?

Protocol, politeness, etiquette (sp?), etc...
Yeah, but I think that was 80's point. It's not the sex per se.

It's the "what's appropriate for public consumption/display/discussion" etc. Yes, sex is the issue but he's saying sex is a private thing and thus things associated with sex shouldn't be "out in public."

Again the issue is viewing the vagina as strictly for sexual purposes, which perhaps, is a bit unfair to women to have their vaginas reduced to "just sex." Maybe that's what the play is about, it sounds like that might be part of it based on what Yolland said. I haven't seen it myself. They staged it hear in Saipan last February but I was off island when they did so I couldn't go see it (though I would have been interested to).
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