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Old 09-23-2007, 09:25 PM   #31
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Originally posted by martha
I was saying it's self-centered in the context of giving someone shit about not having kids. I personally do think it's incredibly self-centered to spend a ton of money to simply have a baby that looks like you. I would never ever say that to anyone who has done it, and I would never in a bazillion years ever try to legislate it, but I do think it's the height of selfishness in a world with children waiting for good homes and children starving to death.

it's weird -- my head totally agrees with you. totally.

but there's something deep inside me that is curious about what "my" child would look, sound, and act like. is this rational? no, not necessarily. but i think it's human. and i'm someone who'll probably have to spend $30K to either adopt or go the surrogate route, so if i'm spending the same amount of money either way, what's the difference? i'm ultimately not any different than an infertile couple, and adoption costs are astronomical.

(and i mean that as an actual question, this is something i ponder late at night)

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Old 09-23-2007, 10:27 PM   #32
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Not sure what the "debate" referred to in the thread title is supposed to be over...?

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Old 09-23-2007, 11:23 PM   #33
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Originally posted by yolland
Not sure what the "debate" referred to in the thread title is supposed to be over...?
It seems like a personal decision made into a personal debate by societal pressures.

I think it's about the pressure held over some people by families, friends, peer groups, if they have yet to have kids by, say the age of 30. That's maybe what she meant?

I'm 32 and don't plan on having kids for several reasons, mostly I'm not entirely 'sold' on this world we live in. Perhaps having a child would be the only way to enlighten myself and gain those perspectives that would then in turn help me gain hope for the future mankind, ah, delicious irony!
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Old 09-24-2007, 02:33 AM   #34
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Really wanting a child of "your own" is not soley the province of a woman. Men can have such feelings to. I know I do (and I would have never guessed I would feel it so strongly when I was younger).

I don't think it's necessary to judge people so harshly in any direction when it comes to having children. Usually harsh judgements are made from a position of strength (i.e. "I don't feel that way, I couldn't imagine that ever feeling that way, and so for you to feel that way/to do that etc is just inherently wrong.") I suppose if someone is saying "I couldn't have children and it was agonizing and horrible, but I knew the unselfish thing to do was to adopt so I put my desires aside and refused to spend the money on IVF and adopted instead" well, I suppose the argument carries more weight.

Someone could make the argument that every couple should adopt a child (or two) and to choose to be totally childless is "selfish" when so many children need a home. I wouldn't be the one to make that argument though, because again, I don't think it's necessary to be so harsh.

Or "I also said I didn't want children and now I want them so badly and it's too late for me so you shouldn't be so hasty and saying you don't want kids". I think that argument has weight too. But to say, with your brood of kids, "Oh, you'll change your mind" is just condescending.
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Old 09-24-2007, 03:15 AM   #35
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Everyone is entitled to a choice.

Fertility treatments are fantastic for those who have the desire for a biological child. Adoption is a great way to help a child and fulfil your desire for a child.

Some people want kids and some don't. Some people want long hair and some short. It's just something that you know.

If others judge then it's their problem not yours. It is hard being asked the baby question but it's really no-one else's business.
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Old 09-24-2007, 05:04 AM   #36
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I think having a child or children in an attempt to "have someone to love me" or to fulfill one's political/career/etc. aspirations is incredibly selfish because then it's not about the child/children, but about you. Otherwise I think wanting children is a pretty normal desire for many people -- it seems to be a built in urge for most -- and I don't think most people's motives for having children are inherently selfish.

I'm not going to have any children, but I think if I did want one (or more) I would go the adoption route because having a child which "looks like me" or is biologically mine isn't a big thing for me. And pregnancy and childbirth certainly hold no great attraction for me either. But what works for me isn't necessarily going to work for anyone else and that's just fine.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:30 AM   #37
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Originally posted by toscano

If someone wants their own child it's their prerogative, and who are you or I to say if it's self-centred and how they should spend their money ?
I agree with all your posts on this.

Every single person makes a personal choice about having kids or not. Maybe one day all of us will respect all the single choices we all make.

It seemed to me that Martha respects people's rights to choose IVF, still, despite it being something she disagrees with. And that's something.
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Old 09-24-2007, 07:42 AM   #38
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I think people need to mind their own business.

People ask me ALL the time, like maybe once a week. I don't really have an answer b/c....fuck, I DONT KNOW!! I'm not going to say "Oh I'm NEVER having kids!!!" b/c I don't know that. I know I'm not having kids right now. Maybe in three years when I have a house and some more time a space we will reconsider. But heck, that's something that WE will decide WHEN we feel it's appropriate so for now when people ask about kids I tell them they are welcome to come let my dog out over the holidays if they are THAT bored and into other people's personal lives.

ETA: I have no qualms about adoption, but at this point there's no way we could afford it, even with the adoption credits I'd get from my employer.
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Old 09-24-2007, 08:16 AM   #39
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i find it amusing when people i hardly know are more concerned about what is going on (or not) with my ovaries than i am.
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Old 09-24-2007, 12:07 PM   #40
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
It seemed to me that Martha respects people's rights to choose IVF, still, despite it being something she disagrees with.
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Old 09-24-2007, 01:08 PM   #41
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Just curious, you seem to have a desire to help nurture older kids. Any chance you have entertained adopting an older child?

I say this because I was adopted, and I am so thankful for the fact that I was given a chance that some are not fortunate enough to get.

Just a thought.

Your personal choice shows great maturity.
Not a chance. 'Nurture' is not a word in my vocabulary, in relation to human beings, sad to say. That' I'm rather good at being helpful to teenagers is kind of incidental, not something I strive to do. These kids just like talking to me, and I'm usually willing to shut up and listen to them for as long as they need to talk. But that's about the extent of my nurturing nature where humans are concerned. Don't get me wrong, it's a fine idea to adopt older children, and I encourage it for people who /do/ want to help out kids that way. I just know I do not have the personality to do it long term. I'm all too likely to lose my temper and start snapping necks. I can't put up with children for very long, even when I /like/ them. I mean, my nephews and nieces refer to me as the aunt they never see. I like them, but I just don't..bother with them..much, poor rats.

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