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Old 10-24-2007, 09:55 PM   #76
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okay, has anyone here actually been to the web site?

hi
lar
i
ous

there is a hispanic studies program which is aimed at evangelizing the growing immigrant hispanic population.


...because most of them aren't christian anyway?
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Old 10-24-2007, 09:57 PM   #77
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Originally posted by unico

there is a hispanic studies program which is aimed at evangelizing the growing immigrant hispanic population.


...because most of them aren't christian anyway?
I'd assume most of them are Catholic.

You know how unacceptable that is.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:12 PM   #78
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At least where I grew up (which was mostly Southern Baptist or S.B.-Convention-aligned Baptist), Catholics were definitely seen as in need of evangelizing, i.e. not "saved." I don't know how pervasive or current that particular view is.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:17 PM   #79
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no it is true. i went to a bible study once in college and these kids were going on and on about how i wasn't saved (catholic).
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:24 PM   #80
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yep. I know this from personal experience. My dad got "saved" out of catholicism.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:27 PM   #81
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My English teacher in my freshmen year of high school was a very Irish Catholic type, you know, from real close to Philly, went to Catholic school and all. He then went to college in North Carolina, and he said he always had his Baptist roommates lecturing him on how his religion was misguided and incorrect compared to theirs.

I personally haven't spent enough time in the south to have that kind of experience, but being that he's from the same upbringing as I am, from the same town, same type of family, I'd assume that I'd get the same thing down there.
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Old 10-24-2007, 10:29 PM   #82
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We've had two former FYMers that expressed this very line of "logic" as well... at least that I can recall.
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Old 10-25-2007, 06:49 AM   #83
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I dismissed the courses too lightly, having a lifelong aversion to domestic stuff. I agree that it is a matter of choice and as yolland noted that there are required courses that might more strictly be called academic, though I'd have to see the syllabus.

In the church I grew up in, I found quite a few women believing that leadership is not a proper role for women in the church (and I've found them extending that to the outside world) I was always amused by (and one of the reasons I left the church) that when searching for someone to put on the board, they had to choose a infamous church adulterer--he'd sit with his mistress in the one section of pews while his wife sat in the other (after first offering it to an 18 year old who declined it) rather than offer it to any woman in the church.

It surprised me how many of the men in the church didn't have any problem with women leadership (although there was no revolution or even question of changing the rules to allow women on the board. There were not any women ministers in the denomination then, I assume it is the same now.) My parents in point. My father is a staunch conservative, who has no problems with women ministers, women priests, women leaders (as long as it's not Hilary). My mother's uncomfortable with women in leadership positions. My father admires women athletes as much as male ones and watches women's golf, women's basketball. (Although if I ran for office, I think she'd vote for me as a good parent. My father might or might not, but that would be on purely political grounds which would be perfectly fine for me and a cause for shared amusement)

The women were bright and funny and didn't seem Stepfordy. I noticed judgment when things stepped outside of the norm, but I notice that everywhere. They didn't seem bitter or resentful or self-limited. They just weren't really interested in the other stuff--the "men's" stuff. Sometimes I found them ill-equipped to deal with outside things, a little too quick to believe whatever was said even outside of religion, a little too sheltered. But they were wonderfully kind for the most part. But I could see problems with the women who were made for something different. I didn't see any difference in, say, levels and occurence depression, but I saw difference in the manifestations of depression. It seemed to me even young that that particular fit didn't suit all women. It didn't suit me. I left with no rancor on any side.

I don't remember must gender role pressing, though. There just seemed to be a fall into it. The sermons didn't linger on it. Although there was certainly praise for homemakers, there was no push. I got along well with the ministers. Mouthy me was a favorite. Probably because they knew I was actually listening to what they were saying and discussing it with them. I found when there was a push, it was most often the women doing the pushing, although it was mild enough. I was always welcome.
Although I didn't stay, I have fond memories of it. I rarely (though with one or two members who left the church anyway) found much ugliness in the message.

I didn't want to impose that particular limitation on myself, though I certainly placed other limitations on myself later on for a variety of reasons that I can't blame any church for.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:45 AM   #84
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It doesn't rule those things out and it's not inconceivable, but the impression I get from that article is that it is so lopsided and the women are doing all the sacrificing and the compromising. Nothing about it seems mutual to me, but of course it could be the slant of the article.

I think it may very much be about the slant of the article. As Yolland already pointed out there is definitely a mean-spirited tone about the article. It's interesting that in general we've taken what this article says at face value without really questioning whether it's really accurately representing how these women view their "role" and the nature of this class.
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Old 10-25-2007, 07:53 AM   #85
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At least where I grew up (which was mostly Southern Baptist or S.B.-Convention-aligned Baptist), Catholics were definitely seen as in need of evangelizing, i.e. not "saved." I don't know how pervasive or current that particular view is.
Well, my church is doing an evangelistic series right now in one of the villages on our island. And Saipan is 95% Catholic.



The idea that "my denomination is the right one" is not exactly unique though. In fact, I'd suspect most people essentially feel this way about whatever their theological beliefs are (or lack thereof). Ask any of the parents of my Catholic students that want to become Seventh-day Adventists (and have been told they cannot). . .

I do think though that when people make it an issue of who is "saved" or not, that it is wrong. I may believe that my particular understanding of faith is "correct" without having to in turn believe that everyone who differs in their understanding is doomed to hell. And I think it is sad when people are not free to follow their convictions about what they think is true and right for them.
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:03 AM   #86
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It's interesting that in general we've taken what this article says at face value without really questioning whether it's really accurately representing how these women view their "role" and the nature of this class.
This happens many many times in FYM.
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:54 AM   #87
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I think it may very much be about the slant of the article. As Yolland already pointed out there is definitely a mean-spirited tone about the article. It's interesting that in general we've taken what this article says at face value without really questioning whether it's really accurately representing how these women view their "role" and the nature of this class.
Well even if that's true, I posted the article merely as a jumping off point for a discussion about women in the context of this type of religious belief or even holding certain beliefs outside the context of religion. As has already been mentioned, it's not as if similar thoughts have never been expressed in FYM before.
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Old 10-26-2007, 02:12 AM   #88
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Quote:
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Well, my church is doing an evangelistic series right now in one of the villages on our island. And Saipan is 95% Catholic.



The idea that "my denomination is the right one" is not exactly unique though. In fact, I'd suspect most people essentially feel this way about whatever their theological beliefs are (or lack thereof). Ask any of the parents of my Catholic students that want to become Seventh-day Adventists (and have been told they cannot). . .
I would have to say I never personally saw any evangelizing in the opposite direction (i.e. by Catholics to Baptists), nor have I ever personally had Catholics "evangelize" to me (unless you count required religion courses in Catholic schools, which I guess you could, depending on whether or not the school primarily serves an existing Catholic population). Perhaps it's different elsewhere--obviously at one time it was, or Saipan wouldn't be 95% Catholic in the first place (I imagine "evangelizing" would be at best a polite way to describe how that happened, though).
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:06 AM   #89
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Originally posted by phillyfan26
My English teacher in my freshmen year of high school was a very Irish Catholic type, you know, from real close to Philly, went to Catholic school and all. He then went to college in North Carolina, and he said he always had his Baptist roommates lecturing him on how his religion was misguided and incorrect compared to theirs.

I personally haven't spent enough time in the south to have that kind of experience, but being that he's from the same upbringing as I am, from the same town, same type of family, I'd assume that I'd get the same thing down there.
From my personal experience, all Baptists are the same as what you've described. No offense to any Baptists on this forum, btw.
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Old 10-26-2007, 03:28 AM   #90
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But I could see problems with the women who were made for something different. I didn't see any difference in, say, levels and occurence depression, but I saw difference in the manifestations of depression. It seemed to me even young that that particular fit didn't suit all women. It didn't suit me.
Do you mean homemaker expectations, no-women-in-religious-leadership expectations, or both? Not allowing women to be rabbis was certainly one of my major gripes with Orthodoxy (though it's not precisely analogous since rabbis, especially in Orthodoxy, are primarily charged with ruling on legal matters, not 'pastoral' duties). Most of the women in the (Orthodox) community I grew up with did work outside the home (although my own mother didn't), and I would guess that's the case in most Orthodox communities, though obviously not among the ultra-Orthodox. It wasn't a doctrinal issue though, there was no bar of that sort. Really I have to imagine it's not feasible for any denomination today (Christian, Jewish, whatever), unless it's a tiny one, to aggressively promote 'women belong in the home' as an 'ideal'--ethical considerations aside, it's just not economically realistic for most families, even if that were what they wanted to do.

I'm sure we've all known at least a few women, both religious and nonreligious, who were deeply unhappy being homemakers and more or less felt they'd been forced into it (often overlapping with unhappy marriages, which can make it sort of chicken-or-egg), though happily that's much less common than it used to be. But there comes a point where you have to hold people accountable as individuals for their own choices and the results of them--I guess where it gets sticky is trying to pin down precisely where that point is.
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