BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
nathan1977 said:
Some of us don't pore over Interference every hour of the day. (Some of us have jobs that don't allow for endless blue crack procrastination.) I'm genuinely surprised that one post has created such animosity, and sad that such judgmentalism has come from it, particularly from people who make such a virtue of non-judgment.
Animosity? No animosity, it's just that you have stated things like this before and never really explained, you just kind of talked around them. And where have I judged YOU? I don't know you, and I really don't know exactly where you stand, due to some "drive by" posting. But apparently that's due to your job, and apparently we don't have jobs like you... see that tone can go both ways.
nathan1977 said:
You would have to assume that I somehow put less of a priority on men being here to serve women. And that would be a mistake. For the record, I do think that Christian husbands are called ultimately to serve their wives, and I do think that Christian wives are called to serve their husbands. It's not an either/or, but a both/and. Does anyone really not think that the ways that we are built as men and women apply themselves in different ways in the marriage? Equality does not necessarily mean sameness -- after all, as the old saying goes, we're one, but not the same. If you want to argue otherwise, you've got about 10,000 years (or however long humans have been around) of biological, chemical, emotional (and, for some, spiritual) history going against you. Is everyone going to fit into a box? Of course not -- but there's a principle of servanthood that is at work, which manifest differently in men and women because we are different creatures. That's what the Scriptures exhort for Christian husbands and wives, and that's what I was getting at.
I agree and applaud your thinking that the submitting to each other is equal.
But what do you mean by "Does anyone really not think that the ways that we are built as men and women apply themselves in different ways in the marriage?"
I guess this is really what I take issue with...
nathan1977 said:
Do I take the Bible literally when it says that I am supposed to lay down my life for my wife? Yes, I do. Every day, I'm supposed to make sure that her well-being is my primary concern. That's how I submit to my wife -- by putting her needs above my own. I like how our pastor puts it -- "if everyone focuses on everyone else's needs, everyone's needs are met." Nowhere should that be more true than in a marriage relationship. Is it always? No. But is that the principle's fault?
Still agree, and it would be nice if all relationships worked this way...
nathan1977 said:
Does the Bible get into the literal ins-and-outs of who does the washing up, who cooks, who cleans? No, and honestly, I don't think God cares who does what. It's the attitude, the principle, that He cares about. ("God looks on the heart," as it says in 1 Samuel.) Each marriage has to sort out the best way for it to work. Sometimes I wash dishes. Sometimes my wife washes dishes. Sometimes my wife cooks. Sometimes I cook (actually, not often -- I'm lousy at it). Sometimes I have managed the household finances. Right now she does, but regardless, we have always made our financial decisions together. Right now, I'm the full-time breadwinner. That means certain things for the family right now, but there have been times where my wife was the full-time breadwinner and I wasn't. That meant something different for the family. You fill in the gaps to make it work, but if you're more interested in your own happiness than in taking care of the people around you, you're in for a rough ride. This is why I get particularly frustrated with husbands who don't reciprocate the servanthood of their wives, and why that's a particular priority of mine in the husband/wife relationships that m wife and I counsel.
Ok, this was what I was wanting you to answer. The Bible does have many references to "wives should keep the house", "wives should learn quiet", etc...
But I'm glad you all share the duties.
nathan1977 said:
It's not convenient at all. It's not neat. And that's kind of where the rubber meets the road, isn't it? A life of servitude -- to your spouse, to your children, to your coworkers, to your employers, to the random homeless guy you meet on the street -- is the most inconvenient of all. I personally think genuine servanthood starts in the home, because the people in your family are the ones closest to you -- and oftentimes the ones hardest to serve.
It was neat and convenient when I thought you were avoiding the issue of gender roles. I know many who take the Bible much more literally than you and their wives have to mind everything they say, they have to stay home, etc...
But you have now clear this up.
nathan1977 said:
People are railing against these women because they are volunteering to place a value on certain activities that are important to them -- and, presumably, to someone they would like to marry. Is it important to me that my wife knows how to iron? No, but there are some people for whom it might be. My father-in-law worked for 10 years drilling holes 19 hours a day to provide for his family. He needed someone who could keep the house together. That's not my life, but it's someone's. Who am I to pass judgment on what someone else thinks is important, or how someone else's marriage works? If these women are saying that it's important to them to prepare for that someday, what's the problem in that? Are they wrong for doing so? Who are we to say? Is it easier to judge and make fun of other people who are making their own choices about where their own lives are going and what they want out of their own marriages?
I really don't think anyone is railing against the women. If anything I think it's irresponsible for a college to offer a class called The role of the Godly woman 101 and perpetuate such inequalities. Just like it would be irresponsible to teach a class to men that taught them how to work long hours, "babysit" their own kids every once in awhile, and not to marry women that want careers.
nathan1977 said:
While we're on the topic, I think yolland raised a very good point with the question, "I'm also wondering what people imagine a "truly equal" marriage in which the woman is a homemaker should look like, and how they imagine that to clearly differ from what an "old-school gender roles" marriage looks like." Would someone like to tackle that?
If the couple wants the wife of husband to be the homemaker, I have no problem with that, as long as the wife or husband is doing this because they want to do this for the family and not doing it begrudgenly...
But I think in order to find true equality the "breadwinner" needs to realize that both are working full time jobs. The "breadwinner" job doesn't end at 5 and the homemaker's continues. I often see this and it's a very destructive way of thinking.
nathan1977 said:
What I hear in this thread that I strongly agree with is that exploitative relationships are wrong, and that Christian husbands who exploit their wives' submission without paying attention to the fact that Paul spends three times as much text talking to husbands about their roles are wrong. (As my father told me growing up, "Your job isn't to make sure you have a Godly wife. Your job is to make sure you are a Godly husband.") All of this I fundamentally agree with.
Your father sounds like a good man...