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Old 10-22-2007, 02:25 PM   #16
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Nice way to twist it...
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Old 10-22-2007, 02:27 PM   #17
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Originally posted by martha
While I think homemaking is an undervalued set of skills, and that should women choose this path for themselves, they should be supported, it saddens me that this is happening. It should be a joyful choice, not a duty owed to men.
Agreed. And there has to be some sacrifice of personal happiness as well and I don't mean hair-shirt donning kind of sacrifices. I mean like NOT going on a vacation so you can buy braces for your little darling with the overbite like Bugs Bunny or owning a mini van instead of a sports car. We all sacrifice our personal happiness every day in lots of ways.(Like getting up and going to work or school) I think thats one way to see it and not just the "subjugating myself to my lord and master" way.

If the choice is to raise children and keep a home then we should support these women the same way we would support them going into medicine or engineering. Is their work less valuable to society?

To go along with that, it may not be worth $100,000 but in my opinion, lots of other disciplines are a waste of money too.
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Old 10-22-2007, 03:50 PM   #18
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Nice way to twist it...
?
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Old 10-22-2007, 03:52 PM   #19
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?
I think you twisted the intent to avoid what MrsS was really talking about.
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:13 PM   #20
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I thought we're all here to serve each other. But that's just me.
I agree that we are-but each other equally and starting from the viewpoint that we are equals. And I don't really know why you have to say "that's just me". Where in that article does it mention anything about serving each other?

I don't mean this to be mean spirited or attacking their religious beliefs, and my religion certainly has many sexist thoughts and behaviors as well. But God created us all as equals, and the fact that women don't have to go to this school or believe what they believe doesn't make it any less relevant to me. I too see nothing at all wrong with homemaking and it is hard work-but it is work that both men and women can do and the whole thing just seems so Stepford to me. They do seem to be coming from a definite viewpoint, and it's not that women are equals under God.
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Old 10-22-2007, 06:32 PM   #21
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I fully agree with martha. If that's what a girl truly wants to do with her life, great, have at it, I don't care. But it shouldn't be forced upon anybody-just because some religion says this is how things should be doesn't automatically mean that it's true. The "Stepford" comparison is spot on-the way this is being handled just seems sorta...creepy to me, in a way. Like that girl who automatically gave up her career when her husband said it was time to have kids. The way that sentence was written just struck me as sounding rather controlling. It may very well have not been like that, but...yeah.

Angela
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:32 PM   #22
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^ That was the reporter's phrasing; we don't know how the woman herself put it. But as far as it goes, I agree that if that's how she experienced it, it seems like a rather deflating message for a teacher of one of these classes to be sending. Then again, I imagine anyone who's signed up for this concentration has already made a decision that naturally, as a married woman, she'd expect to stay at home once children start arriving (since the very design of the program appears to presume that).

I'm certainly not an advocate of people being forced into household models they don't believe in or want. But I also think this idea of 'it should always be a joyous choice' is unrealistically romantic. In many cases, the decision for one spouse or the other to become a homemaker stems primarily from shared strong belief in the value of having one parent always around while the children are young, not just to change diapers and scrub dirty hands but also to provide the kinds of intellectual, social and moral development foundations a good nursery school might otherwise. And when you sit down to compare career progress, salaries and personal lifetime priorities before you start to have kids, it may become mutually apparent that it makes much more logical sense for one spouse to step into that homemaker role than the other. In my experience, this is just as likely to be true of families with a homemaker dad. Often it isn't so much a question of 'Yes! This is what I've always dreamed of doing and I've never seriously considered anything else!' as agreement on mutual priorities. Again--I am NOT advocating that anyone, male or female, with a passionate, overriding desire for professional achievement let themselves be guilted or badgered into giving up their career to stay at home...those forms of contribution to society can be tremendously valuable too, and there is nothing to celebrate in the person of a deeply dissatisfied, resentful and unhappy parent and spouse who feels like s/he was humiliatingly 'demoted' to a role they didn't want, any more than there is in someone who never wanted kids reluctantly agreeing to have them to please their spouse, even though s/he resents the responsibilities it's going to add, the toll it will take on their bank account and career flexibility, etc.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:36 PM   #23
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The issue for me is the notion that women subjugating themselves to men in this way, or any way, is somehow ordered by God. I think that's a completely different issue than life choices made for other reasons, and not from any viewpoint that women are inferior beings.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:44 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
While I don't really see the point in having credit-carrying college courses in home meal preparation, home clothesmaking, and home design (the courses in child development, nutrition and Biblical models of family make more sense), it's not like women students are required to take these courses, or for that matter to attend this particular school at all. Frankly, the article seems more mean-spirited than anything else to me.
It may technically be true that the students have a choice, but my guess is their parents have taught them from the moment they were old enough to understand anything that God has ordained that a woman is supposed to stay home and be submissive to her husband. I know, plenty of Christian parents don't teach that - my own mom's a conservative Catholic stay-at-home mom, but I always got the message I could do anything I wanted with my life career-wise - but unfortunately there are parents out there who do believe this twisted intepretation of the Bible, and homeschool their kids and otherwise limit their contact with the outside world so they don't get any conflicting messages. I know there really isn't anything you can do about it because it's a free country and parents can teach their kids anything they want about religion, but I still find it incredibly sad.
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:44 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
^ That was the reporter's phrasing; we don't know how the woman herself put it. But as far as it goes, I agree that if that's how she experienced it, it seems like a rather deflating message for a teacher of one of these classes to be sending.
Oh, yeah, I know that's the fault of the reporter. You (and MrsSpringsteen with her last post) just worded the concern that I was trying to get at better than I did .

Quote:
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Then again, I imagine anyone who's signed up for this concentration has already made a decision that naturally, as a married woman, she'd expect to stay at home once children start arriving (since the very design of the program appears to presume that).
This is true. Good point.

Angela
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Old 10-22-2007, 07:50 PM   #26
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The issue for me is the notion that women subjugating themselves to men in this way, or any way, is somehow ordered by God. I think that's a completely different issue than life choices made for other reasons, and not from any viewpoint that women are inferior beings.
Where does it say they're teaching that women are "inferior"? I don't really think it's warranted to assume that holding a religious belief that "God ordained" men and women to "naturally" fill different roles means one role is understood to be more glorious or "superior" than the other. These are adult women, it's not a theocratic country, and they can through their own thought processes arrive at a different set of beliefs on such matters than the one their parents held. Or not. I just don't feel any pity for them or see reason to...
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Old 10-22-2007, 08:04 PM   #27
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In many cases, the decision for one spouse or the other to become a homemaker stems primarily from shared strong belief in the value of having one parent always around while the children are young,
Yes, a choice made to benefit the family; a choice made together, a choice that makes you happy.

That's what I meant.
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Old 10-22-2007, 10:23 PM   #28
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Where does it say they're teaching that women are "inferior"? I don't really think it's warranted to assume that holding a religious belief that "God ordained" men and women to "naturally" fill different roles means one role is understood to be more glorious or "superior" than the other. These are adult women, it's not a theocratic country, and they can through their own thought processes arrive at a different set of beliefs on such matters than the one their parents held. Or not. I just don't feel any pity for them or see reason to...
hmmmm I know plenty of SUPERIOR women who chose to stay home and run the house...

At least we have Martha (the other Martha) to demonstrate that you can make the BIG BUCKS being a kick-ass homemaker.
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Old 10-23-2007, 12:52 AM   #29
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At least we have Martha (the other Martha) to demonstrate that you can make the BIG BUCKS being a kick-ass homemaker.
The irony. She's actually a business woman, you do realize.
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Old 10-23-2007, 03:23 AM   #30
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I think you twisted the intent to avoid what MrsS was really talking about.
No. I really don't think he did.
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