The Gay Thread

[nbelcik]

So someone explain this Indiana bill to me. It basically works on the honor system, right? Is there anything stopping a, let's say, homophobic atheist from using Christianity as a front? I mean, there's no way this entire law can be based off of someone's word alone. But that's how it reads to me right now.

It also sounds like a legal nightmare, if that is the case.

It is based on someone's word, so there isn't anything to stop a homophobic atheist from using Christianity as a front. Anyone can say they have a deeply held religious belief that justifies their personal prejudices.


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[LemonMelon]

It is based on someone's word, so there isn't anything to stop a homophobic atheist from using Christianity as a front. Anyone can say they have a deeply held religious belief that justifies their personal prejudices.


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Well, shit.

And I'm sure victims of discrimination, in 2015, will be happy to stand there and take it when there's so physical proof that a business owner even has such a faith. What a fucking trainwreck.

 

[KoDVooDo]

There are many things in this world I don't understand, but let's focus on those which pertain to this bullshit law. Excepting regulatory or legal requirements, shouldn't a business open to the public be required to be open to the entire public? I understand a person can have "deeply held" religious beliefs, but a business is separate from it's owner, isn't it? This would be a separate issue from Hobby Lobby not paying for health insurance because that's actually the owner spending his/her own money. Also separate from Chik-Fil-A, since they are closed to the entire public on Sundays not just those whom the owners consider immoral. Some may even argue that following their beliefs trumps the laws if man. Haven't been to church in years, but I seem to remember something about "render unto Caesar what is Ceasar's". The churches I went to generally accepted this to mean to live by the laws of the land even if the actions taken seemed at odds with religious teaching.

Just another reason I no longer have faith in religious establishments.

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[Galeongirl]

I still find it striking that these intolerant homophobes still have such a strong voice. Here if someone utters something homophobic, it gets a small piece in the paper, everyone's duly outraged and then a day later nobody gives a damn anymore. They simply don't have a platform to shout their messages anymore.

Hopefully the US is gonna reach that point some day. There's a long way to go, but it's starting to go in the right direction.

It would be nice if everywhere around the world people would realise that religion and sexuality are private personal things, but yeah, I know that's pretty damn impossible to hope for.

 

[bono_212]

Some may even argue that following their beliefs trumps the laws if man. Haven't been to church in years, but I seem to remember something about "render unto Caesar what is Ceasar's". The churches I went to generally accepted this to mean to live by the laws of the land even if the actions taken seemed at odds with religious teaching.

Basically.

 

[Irvine511]

It is based on someone's word, so there isn't anything to stop a homophobic atheist from using Christianity as a front. Anyone can say they have a deeply held religious belief that justifies their personal prejudices.


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But only against the gays. If I say i have a deeply rooted religious belief against baking macaroons for a Bar Mitzvah or seating blacks at my restaurant, I can't refuse to do so. Because that would be discrimination, the bad kind.

So long as it's "deeply held" and "religious" it's automatically about the gays. These are our new code words. Right?

 

[corianderstem]

Well, we all know if there had been any gays at the wedding at Canaa, Jesus would have been all "GTFO" and not let them have any of his magic fishes or wine.

 

[Irvine511]

I still find it striking that these intolerant homophobes still have such a strong voice. Here if someone utters something homophobic, it gets a small piece in the paper, everyone's duly outraged and then a day later nobody gives a damn anymore. They simply don't have a platform to shout their messages anymore.

Hopefully the US is gonna reach that point some day. There's a long way to go, but it's starting to go in the right direction.

It would be nice if everywhere around the world people would realise that religion and sexuality are private personal things, but yeah, I know that's pretty damn impossible to hope for.

There's a major rural/urban divide in the US. And it's a huge place. There's a reason why this passed in a place like Indiana.

 

[Galeongirl]

But only against the gays. If I say i have a deeply rooted religious belief against baking macaroons for a Bar Mitzvah or seating blacks at my restaurant, I can't refuse to do so. Because that would be discrimination, the bad kind.

So long as it's "deeply held" and "religious" it's automatically about the gays. These are our new code words. Right?

Yeah, cause gays apparently aren't equal to 'normal' people. While we have now learned that jews and blacks are.



Man in 50 years this will all sound as ridiculous as it is.

There's a major rural/urban divide in the US. And it's a huge place. There's a reason why this passed in a place like Indiana.

Fraid I don't have much knowledge on the different states, asides from the usual cliches. I take it Indiana is a bit backwards?

 

[bono_212]

But only against the gays. If I say i have a deeply rooted religious belief against baking macaroons for a Bar Mitzvah or seating blacks at my restaurant, I can't refuse to do so. Because that would be discrimination, the bad kind.

So long as it's "deeply held" and "religious" it's automatically about the gays. These are our new code words. Right?

Which is why a law like this bothers me so much. Who's to stop anyone from doing the above?

Well, we all know if there had been any gays at the wedding at Canaa, Jesus would have been all "GTFO" and not let them have any of his magic fishes or wine.

Again, exactly.

There's a major rural/urban divide in the US. And it's a huge place. There's a reason why this passed in a place like Indiana.

Actually, Indiana is a lot more complex a state than people give it credit for, which is why this is a very difficult situation for many people who live there, and why my Facebook feed is more blown up with people against this law passing than for it. The entire northwestern portion of the state is completely different from the rest. Blue area, industrial-based, central time zone, etc. The loudest rep against this is from my home city. He's been in the Indiana government for most of my life and I worked a page for him for a day back in 8th grade. You've probably seen a lot of quotes from him in the last few days, he's the House Minority Leader.

There are so many other problems in Indiana right now that this is taking attention from, it's pathetic. The mills are about to have more lay-offs, there's an HIV scare down south, the education system is beyond broken (no thanks to Pence, or his predecessor), but the fact is, if it's not happening in Indianapolis, or the surrounding area, the rest of the state couldn't give two fucks.

I could write a novel the length of A Song of Ice and Fire about how effed up things are in Indiana, and have been for quite some time.

 

[99ledzeppelins]

What really bugs me about all this homophobia going on is that there is no reason to even believe that being gay is wrong. The Bible actually doesn't say a word about it being a sin. Just look here.

 

[bono_212]

That website is a sin. Holy shit, what year is it?!

 

[99ledzeppelins]

What do you mean it's a sin? Sorry I might be misinterpreting something here, idk.

 

[Galeongirl]

Wow that's old skool!

 

[99ledzeppelins]

Oh, now I get it. God, I'm oblivious.

 

[deep]

Boycott Indiana

It's starting to work


http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/breaking/chi-angies-list-new-indiana-law-20150328-story.html

 

[DaveC]

What really bugs me about all this homophobia going on is that there is no reason to even believe that being gay is wrong. The Bible actually doesn't say a word about it being a sin. Just look here.

“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." - Leviticus 20:13

Regardless of what some aesthetically offensive website says, the Bible makes it quite clear that homosexuality is a sin. Don't know where people get the idea that this verse doesn't mean exactly what it says.

 

[BVS]

What translation is that? It's pretty piss poor, and it actually goes against your point. It clearly calls it a capital offense, which would make it man's law, not God's.


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[Galeongirl]

“If a man practices homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman, both men have committed a detestable act. They must both be put to death, for they are guilty of a capital offense." - Leviticus 20:13

Regardless of what some aesthetically offensive website says, the Bible makes it quite clear that homosexuality is a sin. Don't know where people get the idea that this verse doesn't mean exactly what it says.

it doesn't state homosexuality actually, it says something about lying both with women and men. So one could interpret it as claiming you should not sleep with both at the same time. That sleeping with someone of the same gender while in a heterosexual relationship is still cheating.

It's all down to interpretation. NOWHERE does it state literally that homosexuality is wrong or a sin. Nowhere.

 

[Hewson]

it doesn't state homosexuality actually, it says something about lying both with women and men. So one could interpret it as claiming you should not sleep with both at the same time. That sleeping with someone of the same gender while in a heterosexual relationship is still cheating.
.

So basically one can interpret the Bible as saying the only thing to avoid is a menage-a-trois. Bible is no fun.

 

[bono_212]

What translation is that? It's pretty piss poor, and it actually goes against your point. It clearly calls it a capital offense, which would make it man's law, not God's.


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Leviticus is the book of God's law, though, I believe.

But, I'm not sure, nor do I care to continue to hear it quoted, as those are the laws Jesus came to fulfill>circular argument over interpretation.

I'm much more upset about the fact that my brother just called my crying because half of the church walked out today, and he doesn't want to see his family fighting like this (nearly everyone at that church is either one of my aunts, uncles or cousins). I didn't really have an answer for him, either, except to tell him that sometimes you have to keep family separate from things like this if you want to stay family.

But yeah, basically disagreement over this stupid, asinine law is literally driving my family apart, and it's really stressing me out / upsetting to no end.

 

[martha]

What I can't understand, as a non-Christian, is the focus on one line that addresses non-voluntary behavior, as opposed to the voluntary behavior of lying and cheating that Jesus specifically addresses, several times I think.

 

[BVS]

Leviticus is the book of God's law, though, I believe.

But, I'm not sure, nor do I care to continue to hear it quoted, as those are the laws Jesus came to fulfill>circular argument over interpretation.

I'm much more upset about the fact that my brother just called my crying because half of the church walked out today, and he doesn't want to see his family fighting like this (nearly everyone at that church is either one of my aunts, uncles or cousins). I didn't really have an answer for him, either, except to tell him that sometimes you have to keep family separate from things like this if you want to stay family.

But yeah, basically disagreement over this stupid, asinine law is literally driving my family apart, and it's really stressing me out / upsetting to no end.

Sorry to hear about your family.

My point was about the interpretation, using the term "capital offense' defines it as the government and not God's law. It was a really horrible translation, using terms like homosexuality and capital offense, terms that didn't exist back then distort and change the meaning. It would be like substituting car for horse or injecting the internet somehow into the Bible.


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[Galeongirl]

So basically one can interpret the Bible as saying the only thing to avoid is a menage-a-trois. Bible is no fun.

Unless there's a threesome with two women. That's fine.

Leviticus is the book of God's law, though, I believe.

But, I'm not sure, nor do I care to continue to hear it quoted, as those are the laws Jesus came to fulfill>circular argument over interpretation.

I'm much more upset about the fact that my brother just called my crying because half of the church walked out today, and he doesn't want to see his family fighting like this (nearly everyone at that church is either one of my aunts, uncles or cousins). I didn't really have an answer for him, either, except to tell him that sometimes you have to keep family separate from things like this if you want to stay family.

But yeah, basically disagreement over this stupid, asinine law is literally driving my family apart, and it's really stressing me out / upsetting to no end.

That sucks. It's so sad how a stupid law can wreck a family like this.

 

[deep]

#boycottindiana

#boycottindiana

#boycottindiana

#boycottindiana

Religious freedom law sparks outrage as #boycottindiana trends worldwide

 

[anitram]

I'm much more upset about the fact that my brother just called my crying because half of the church walked out today, and he doesn't want to see his family fighting like this (nearly everyone at that church is either one of my aunts, uncles or cousins). I didn't really have an answer for him, either, except to tell him that sometimes you have to keep family separate from things like this if you want to stay family.

But yeah, basically disagreement over this stupid, asinine law is literally driving my family apart, and it's really stressing me out / upsetting to no end.

That's a really sad story.

I also just fundamentally don't understand it. Maybe if the people fighting could just step back and attempt to gain some perspective in life they would see how little importance this has overall. Given the sort of unspeakable violence and disparity of equality in our world, I am astounded that this would rise to the level of tearing a family apart.

 

[deep]

I find the divide a good thing, one side is moving away from bad thinking
the fundamentalists groups that are not divided are more dangerous

 

[BoMac]

Imagine if we lived in a world where every one of us was treated equally, and we all worried about solving issues that really mattered, how better off we'd all be.

What I can't understand, as a non-Christian, is the focus on one line that addresses non-voluntary behavior, as opposed to the voluntary behavior of lying and cheating that Jesus specifically addresses, several times I think.

Leviticus also mentions tattoos and shellfish, among others, but people conveniently forget about that.

 

[Galeongirl]

It truly is a shame how many centuries the human race wastes on hating each other, other religions, other human beings... while if we all worked together our planet wouldn't be going to shits and our people would live on for much longer, rather than us writing our own death sentence.

 

[Hewson]

Unless there's a threesome with two women. That's fine.



.

Good to know, I may have to start going to church again.