The Gay Thread

[jeevey]

Well, I think it's important to recognize that they are a church and they are in fact Baptist. One of the features of Baptism is its autonomy, which has good parts and bad. One of the bad is that anyone can use the name for any purpose. You can be kicked out of the convention but you can still call yourself a Baptist church. And it's really important to recognize that this is a church and that their craziness is expressing a real theological belief. It's important to recognize that religion can be really, truly bad: that there is such thing as bad belief. Religion can be such a powerful force for good that people can be reluctant to admit that. They want to say that its an expression of the individual person, or a perversion of the real religion, that the 'real' religion is not like that. But the fact is that these people are acting out their real beliefs about the nature of God. It's not just a perverted or unfortunate or mistaken one. It is real religion, just as sincere as all the good ones, and it is actively evil.

 

[cobl04]

No, it's really not important at all. They have like 20 fucking members. No one should even know they exist.

 

[PhilsFan]

Groups this small call themselves religions for the tax breaks.

 

[Galeongirl]

I don't think it is important at all. We all know religion could be bad, eh, look at the crusades, for example. Or do I even need to mention 9/11? So why should this absolutely moronic family gain any more attention than they already undeservedly have gained?

It's kinda similar idea that we face here now in my country, with our nazi-like blonde muslim hating politician. I just don't get why people keep putting him in the newspapers, tv shows, everything. By giving him attention, he'll stick around doing the same shtick every time because it works. He gets attention, people vote for him to protest the system. Yet if we'd stop paying attention to him, he'll eitehr go even more radical, showing his true colours, or we'd hear nothing at all.

Same in this case. If people would stop talking about this family, they'd have less attention. And as the writer of the piece COBL posted already said, if people would ignore them rather than let themselves be offended by these pieces of shite, they would not get their satisfaction and eventually fuck off.

 

[bono_212]

Groups this small call themselves religions for the tax breaks.

Everything this lot does is calculated.

 

[jeevey]

I'm not saying it's important to give them attention. GG, I don't know how it is in Europe, but my experience in the US is that people tend to assume that religion is always a force for moral good, and that when it goes wrong it's due to a flaw in the practitioner rather than the belief. My feeling is that some beliefs are just bad, and if they don't always work out to their worst logical conclusion it's a case of the person being better than their religion and doing good in spite of it.

 

[Galeongirl]

I think the percentage of atheist or agnostic people is slightly larger over here than in the US. Lots of people do claim to be of certian religion but don't go to church every sunday and whatnot.

Since I study Chemistry, I don't find many believers at my study. We had one guy who was deeply religious, and he found a way to combine his beliefs and science, so that was pretty respectable.
I don't think we link morality to religion that much here, I haven't heard of it at least. I myself had a protestant upbringing, but it was never taught that religion was morally good. It was more taught that you had to do good to be good.

 

[jeevey]

Around here there's a narrative that moral behavior only comes from belief in God--that all athiests and skeptics are moral relativists, and that borrowed theological strictures stripped of God are the only thing that keep non-religious people from total moral chaos. I've had this explained to me quite clearly and sincerely by Christians I grew up with, and I've also talked with people who are honestly surprised to hear that a non-religious system of ethics can exist. So often the feeling is that any religion is better than no religion, since it's the only thing that keeps us from the abyss. And people can be quite reluctant to admit that a religious teaching itself, not just a mistaken application, can be bad. Religious beliefs get a lot of free passes in the States.

 

[bonocomet]

Hmm... maybe things are a bit different on the eastern side of the continent than the western side. I grew up on the west coast, and have never got that feeling about religion that you are describing jeevey. It feels a lot more like Gg describes.

 

[jeevey]

That may be true. Or it may be culturally specific to people with religious backgrounds, who tend to run in clusters and not develop close relationships outside the church--at least where I am. My husband is from the West Coast but that attitude is common with his Baptist family. But we also have that thing going where theism is kind of a prerequisite for public life like elected office, because it proves you have moral fiber. I think we have only a couple of professing atheist in our entire congressional system.

 

[nbelcik]

Hmm... maybe things are a bit different on the eastern side of the continent than the western side. I grew up on the west coast, and have never got that feeling about religion that you are describing jeevey. It feels a lot more like Gg describes.

It really does depend on where you live. I live in Portland, OR and I've never gotten that feeling about religion here. But when I go to visit my grandparents in Ohio, you get that feeling a lot. The East and the Midwest tend to be more religious than the West.

 

[iron yuppie]

That may be true. Or it may be culturally specific to people with religious backgrounds, who tend to run in clusters and not develop close relationships outside the church--at least where I am. My husband is from the West Coast but that attitude is common with his Baptist family. But we also have that thing going where theism is kind of a prerequisite for public life like elected office, because it proves you have moral fiber. I think we have only a couple of professing atheist in our entire congressional system.

The problem might be that you seem be generalizing about a movement, i.e. Christianity, that has countless manifestations and interpretations. I've been around a lot of Mormons, for example, you will talk quite openly about "good deeds" being the mark of a person rather than a perception of closeness to god.

 

[Pearl]

Hmm... maybe things are a bit different on the eastern side of the continent than the western side. I grew up on the west coast, and have never got that feeling about religion that you are describing jeevey. It feels a lot more like Gg describes.

Same here. I've lived my whole life on Staten Island, part of NYC, and never had that kind of experience. Honestly, Jeevey, that was a broad generalization because the US is a large country with so much diversity and attitudes. The conservative religious attitudes in the South won't be found in many other places. So it's hard to paint the American religious experience with one brush. Where I grew up, it was mostly Catholic that leaned mainly on cultural, family traditions.

 

[Galeongirl]

What a load of nonsense, it sounds like the religious people you speak of are quite full of themselves Jeevey. As if people with another religion or no religion can't have morals... yeah, cause them christians have been so morally awesome over the centuries... morals are a human thing. So are mistakes and wars and all kinds of crap.

 

[bonocomet]

The above comments all seem to be the case here, I think. I have never in my life got the feeling that anyone thinks practicing a religion is a better way or something that most people should do or aspire to do. It's always just sort of felt like something some people choose to do because it helps them feel better in their lives. Just a choice made by some because they feel it benefits them. Very religious people here seem to be a minority.

This is off topic I know, but relates to this line of discussion...
My mother grew up here as well (San Diego) and was born and raised here since 1942. Her parents came here from the east coast after her father served in the military and they liked it here and decided to stay. Of a family of 2 parents and 5 kids, only one of her sisters chose to lead a religious life, and even as kids, my mom always described her family as looking at her sister as the oddball. I don't mean that negatively, only that none of her family were or felt any need to practice religion so her sister choosing it from a young age was unusual. I guess my point here is that even in the early 1940's here, religion did not play a major role in daily life. (By the way, her sister chose the Baptist religion. And Baptist have always held the most fanatical reputation when it comes to devout practice, as far as I have known in my lifetime.)

 

[bono_212]

Jeevey, this isn't first time I've seen you experience something in your life and proceed to attribute your experience to the whole. Maybe you should consider broadening your viewpoint before making blanket statements, or, at the very least, expressing first that what you're talking about is just what you've seen, instead of trying to pass it off as the behavior of a whole.

 

[jeevey]

The problem might be that you seem be generalizing about a movement, i.e. Christianity, that has countless manifestations and interpretations. I've been around a lot of Mormons, for example, you will talk quite openly about "good deeds" being the mark of a person rather than a perception of closeness to god.

That may be true. But American culture is still broadly Christianized, even though many people are not religious at all. I think America tends to lack much awareness and discussion about how moral systems are constructed outside of God, a hesitation to name a religious dogma both sincere and bad, a a certain discomfort with atheism/skepticism on a public level. Although there are many atheists here, there are still many contexts in which a claim to faith acts as a litmus test.

 

[bono_212]

I have never in my life got the feeling that anyone thinks practicing a religion is a better way or something that most people should do or aspire to do. It's always just sort of felt like something some people choose to do because it helps them feel better in their lives. Just a choice made by some because they feel it benefits them. Very religious people here seem to be a minority.

That seems to be the exact opposite of the purpose of the Christian religion, though. Or at least in the way I'm interpreting your post. For a Christian, belief in Jesus is a goal that we hope for all people to eventually find their way towards in order to be saved from eternal damnation. I mean, that's the idea behind the go out and preach the gospel aspects of it. Meaning, towards your second point, there's more to it than just feeling better about oneself, it's about what happens during and after our time on Earth.

That's entirely different, however, from someone telling another person that if they're not religious they have no morals. Which, again, isn't something I've ever encountered in my life. I grew up inside of a very large Baptist family and I don't think I've ever heard one of my relatives suggest something like that. However, I have read about people saying things of that nature on the Internet. (Not just here, that wasn't sarcasm.)

 

[deep]

if one is within the group, the group behavior belief, group practice seems reasonable

if one is not in the group the same behavior and practice can appear arrogant and even condescending.

 

[bonocomet]

That seems to be the exact opposite of the purpose of the Christian religion, though. Or at least in the way I'm interpreting your post. For a Christian, belief in Jesus is a goal that we hope for all people to eventually find their way towards in order to be saved from eternal damnation. I mean, that's the idea behind the go out and preach the gospel aspects of it. Meaning, towards your second point, there's more to it than just feeling better about oneself, it's about what happens during and after our time on Earth.

That's entirely different, however, from someone telling another person that if they're not religious they have no morals. Which, again, isn't something I've ever encountered in my life. I grew up inside of a very large Baptist family and I don't think I've ever heard one of my relatives suggest something like that. However, I have read about people saying things of that nature on the Internet. (Not just here, that wasn't sarcasm.)

I agree with your post, but I'm not getting how you're relating that to mine? What you are saying in paragraph 1, I agree with as something I know Christians believed, but I haven't seen widely practiced. I mean, I never felt that a large Christian community was judging me or anyone else for not being a part of their religious community.

And I agree with your second paragraph as well. My very devout Baptist aunt has never behaved as though she or her way is better than anyone else.
(I hope my use of the word "fanatical" in relation to Baptists wasn't taken negatively. It wasn't meant that way at all.)

 

[bono_212]

I agree with your post, but I'm not getting how you're relating that to mine? What you are saying in paragraph 1, I agree with as something I know Christians believed, but I haven't seen widely practiced. I mean, I never felt that a large Christian community was judging me or anyone else for not being a part of their religious community.

And I agree with your second paragraph as well. My very devout Baptist aunt has never behaved as though she or her way is better than anyone else.
(I hope my use of the word "fanatical" in relation to Baptists wasn't taken negatively. It wasn't meant that way at all.)

What I was trying to say, I think lol is that the idea behind Christianity is that it is a better way than not to practice, based on the impacts it has on eternity. From a Christian standpoint. I'm not saying that I think I'm better than anyone for that reason, I'm just saying that what you said and the theology behind Christianity don't exactly jive.

And no, absolutely not, I didn't take it negatively . In my experience, I haven't encountered nearly as many fanatic people in general. The people who were fanatic, however, were usually.....I'm going to leave this post exactly as it is, because I just went to go look up the church I was specifically thinking of in my area and it's Baptist, so never mind!

 

[bonocomet]

I understand what you're saying in your first part. I think what I'm asking is I didn't think I had made any statement on Christian theology in my first post. As far as I know, at least.

Making an edit here...

Ok I went back and reread my post to try and get how you interpreted it and I think I get it now. I probably didn't articulate my idea as exactly as I wanted to. Maybe within the devout Christian community, non believers are seen as people who haven't attained that level..or morality... yet? But it has never felt that this is the norm for the United States as jeevey had described it, to me.

 

[bono_212]

I understand what you're saying in your first part. I think what I'm asking is I didn't think I had made any statement on Christian theology in my first post. As far as I know, at least.

Making an edit here...

Ok I went back and reread my post to try and get how you interpreted it and I think I get it now. I probably didn't articulate my idea as exactly as I wanted to. Maybe within the devout Christian community, non believers are seen as people who haven't attained that level..or morality... yet? But it has never felt that this is the norm for the United States as jeevey had described it, to me.

OK, I think we're all on the same page, then. . I'm always afraid I'm not being as articulate as I'd like to be, so it wouldn't shock me if something I said was unclear.

 

[jeevey]

Bono_212, you're right that I'm making generalizations based on observation and experience--which outside of research is all that most of us can do. I'm also using lots of qualifiers like "it seems like"; "often"; "in many contexts"; and "there is a narrative". I'm making observations about broad cultural attitudes, not making universal claims. The point in what I was saying is that when we see a bad belief or religion we often minimize the fact that the problem may originate in the doctrine itself.

The fact is that WBC is a church, is Baptist, and the gross things they do are a religious problem--it grows quite logically out of their theology. I think the urge to say that it's not about religion, that they are not a church and so on, is a mistake. It's important to acknowledge that they are and then tend to the problem from there.

 

[Pearl]

Bono_212, you're right that I'm making generalizations based on observation and experience--which outside of research is all that most of us can do. I'm also using lots of qualifiers like "it seems like"; "often"; "in many contexts"; and "there is a narrative". I'm making observations about broad cultural attitudes, not making universal claims. The point in what I was saying is that when we see a bad belief or religion we often minimize the fact that the problem may originate in the doctrine itself.

The fact is that WBC is a church, is Baptist, and the gross things they do are a religious problem--it grows quite logically out of their theology. I think the urge to say that it's not about religion, that they are not a church and so on, is a mistake. It's important to acknowledge that they are and then tend to the problem from there.

I believe religion, faith, and spirituality is what others make of it. If someone is looking to find meaning and peace, they could find it in religion. If someone is looking to feel superior to others, they'll find it in religion. It's all about the mindset of the individual when they read a religious text or enter a house of worship. The problem isn't religion itself but how someone interprets whatever is taught. I find it condescending for anyone to say religion automatically makes good people bad when the opposite can occur.

Also, Jeevey, you may be referring to your own experiences and use non-generalizing statements, but your tone comes across as broad.

 

[jeevey]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Have I said that religions automatically makes good people bad? I'm not trying to be incendiary here, I honestly don't know what your comment is referring to.

Also about this:

The problem isn't religion itself but how someone interprets whatever is taught.

Do you think it's impossible that a religious teaching be inherently bad? If for example there were a sacred scripture that said children are under the authority of their parents, do not achieve full personhood until adulthood and must categorically submit to whatever punishment their parents thought proper, thereby legitimizing all child abuse by parents, would that your statement still be true?

 

[bono_212]

I'm sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding something. Have I said that religions automatically makes good people bad? I'm not trying to be incendiary here

Do you think it's impossible that a religious teaching be inherently bad?

I don't know, it does come across like you have your mind pretty well made up.

 

[Pearl]

I don't know, it does come across like you have your mind pretty well made up.

This. You really contradicted yourself there, Jeevey.

 

[anitram]

I don't often agree with jeevey, but I really don't understand what you guys (bono_212 and Pearl) are taking issue with here? I absolutely understand her point and I don't see any contradictions.

 

[Pearl]

I don't often agree with jeevey, but I really don't understand what you guys (bono_212 and Pearl) are taking issue with here? I absolutely understand her point and I don't see any contradictions.

OK, she is saying religious teaching can be bad. Maybe I'm just thinking anytime someone points out the problem with religion (and I agree that the Bible has it's problems) that means they're saying anyone who follows such teachings is a fool and out of touch with reality. Jeevey probably isn't, and I did probably miss her whole point.

Jeevey, of course I see that teaching as horribly bad. But does that mean everything a religion teaches is bad? As in, half of the good points don't matter because of the bad half? Granted, I label my beliefs as simply faith rather than what an institution tells me. It is hard to acknowledge the lousy parts of a teaching when you can't not acknowledge the parts that you've benefitted greatly from. But then again, the Bible was written by people, and what my heart/soul/spirit/gut says is another matter.