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Old 03-13-2015, 08:46 AM   #826
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What is this, Gattaca?
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Old 03-13-2015, 08:53 AM   #827
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Why would I choose NOt to be gay when it's who I am? There's no difference between gay or straight, neither is better than the other, so why would I want to change into something I'm not when it's not an improvement?
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:50 AM   #828
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If being gay has a genetic cause, and the current science seems to say that it is, what would gay people do if they isolated the gene and scientists could reverse it\turn it into a heterosexual gene?

I've heard it argued in here by some that they would never chose to be gay. Well, if offered the choice to NOT be gay, would you take it?


It's an interesting question. It also leads to other questions that I know have come up -- if there is, say, a gay "gene," and if it could be tested for in utero, might some couples choose to terminate a pregnancy on that basis?

I'd like to think that part of the gay "movement" is to show to the mainstream that gay isn't a defect, and that a gay life, while certainly different in some aspects, really isn't all that different. The lowering and hopeful erasure of prejudice towards gays not only helps gays, but more importantly, it helps their parents and family members. Parents who reject their gay children, while reprehensible, are, too, victims of homophobia. They, too, have been taught that gay is "lesser than" and in a better world they would be able to deal with a child's coming out in a much more positive light. I'm sure a hetero parent would prefer a hetero child, that seems natural, but hopefully it's no longer a tragedy. Maybe people say this to me in a "my best friends are black kind of way," but I know several parents under 40 who claim they simply wouldn't care if their child were gay or not. This is because they live in a world where gay now has equal legal status to straight, and gays can get married and have families just like their hetero peers, should they so choose. To me, this is the real heart of the drive for SSM. Equality under the law, equal rights and benefits, these are the tangible, practical benefits. But I think the mental benefits -- for gay people and their extended families -- are more profound. And it helps everyone.

Lastly, if you could turn straight, would you? It's hard to say. Certainly, life would be easier in many ways, but there's enormous value to be found in difference and diversity, that there's more than one way to get through life, and we all benefit from diversity -- I've argued in the past that the "purpose" of a gay person, or what we can learn from homosexuality, is that we are on the planet to do more than just reproduce. That there's more to life than replacing yourself. Further, adults without children can provide support to adults with children, and aging parents. There's much that's beautiful about it, and an outsider's perspective always has value, and gays, who aren't burdened by gender role expectations as much, can model not only relationships of genuine equality, but show that gender roles are performance. Gay dads must perform more "motherly" duties, and lesbian moms more "fatherly" duties, thusly exploding these hackneyed stereotypes of "women do this and men do that." That's valuable. Men can stay at home, and women can work 70 hours a week. And pushing that further, women shouldn't feel like failures if they choose to stay at home. Because we know that there isn't anything a mother can do in parenting that a father can't also do, we're all more free to choose our own paths. Gays can and do liberate straights.

If you'd asked me 15 years ago, yes, I probably would "choose" to be straight. But the gay experience has taught me so much, and so increased my capacity for empathy for all minorities and the marginalized in all aspects of life, and taught me that we are the drivers of our own destiny, that I wouldn't trade it for anything. It is still hard -- there are times and situations where I do closet myself, or at least avoid discussing it -- but it is an indelible part of who I am, and unimaginable to be without. It is a gift.
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Old 03-13-2015, 09:57 AM   #829
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. Because we know that there isn't anything a mother can do in parenting that a father can't also do .
 
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:00 AM   #830
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It's an interesting question. It also leads to other questions that I know have come up -- if there is, say, a gay "gene," and if it could be tested for in utero, might some couples choose to terminate a pregnancy on that basis?
It is already possible to screen embryos and exclude ones with specific genes - albeit at this point it is genes resulting in fairly serious hereditary diseases and so on. It is also possible to exclude all sorts of embryos (Down Syndrome, Klinefelter's, etc.) which people do on a daily basis.

I am not suggesting that it is an analogy but I do know individuals who have kids with DS who would find it equally as horrifying that there exists a relatively simple way of ensuring that DS is not propagated.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:20 AM   #831
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I don't think it's fair to compare a genetic defect like a missing chromosome and a genetic difference to being straight or gay..
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:34 AM   #832
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breastfeeding?
 


in all seriousness, i bet a large number of people in here were raised on formula.

one can also buy breast milk.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:35 AM   #833
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I am not suggesting that it is an analogy but I do know individuals who have kids with DS who would find it equally as horrifying that there exists a relatively simple way of ensuring that DS is not propagated.

i have a friend who has gone through exactly this. she had a DS baby, and she said had she known, they would have terminated, but are so glad they didn't. they adore their son.

to me, that stuff is worrying.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:41 AM   #834
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I don't think it's fair to compare a genetic defect like a missing chromosome and a genetic difference to being straight or gay..
It's an extra chromosome, not a missing one. I wasn't comparing, I was just saying that there are people out there who, for personal reasons, would find it to be analogous. You may not, but they would.

It's sort of like the argument from the deaf community that cochlear implants are going to destroy "deaf culture". May be hard to understand for people not within those communities.
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Old 03-13-2015, 11:43 AM   #835
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The whole line of questioning is terrible; why not choose your child's hair color, eye color, play with their height etc?


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Old 03-13-2015, 11:46 AM   #836
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It's an extra chromosome, not a missing one. I wasn't comparing, I was just saying that there are people out there who, for personal reasons, would find it to be analogous. You may not, but they would.

It's sort of like the argument from the deaf community that cochlear implants are going to destroy "deaf culture". May be hard to understand for people not within those communities.
I don't find it analogous because even if a child with DS has loving parents, it will never be fully able to live in today's society. It's doable, sure, but it's not comparable 100% to 'normal' life. While being gay or straight does not impair your ability to live 'normal' life at all. By comparing the two it would be like saying being gay is a handicap.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:05 PM   #837
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i have a friend who has gone through exactly this. she had a DS baby, and she said had she known, they would have terminated, but are so glad they didn't. they adore their son.

to me, that stuff is worrying.
The amniocentesis process was a lot of stress when my wife was pregnant. They asked us if we wanted to test for possible Down Syndrome etc., I looked at her and she said, "no what difference would it make", there was nothing short of an Its Alive baby that would have caused her to even think of terminating the pregnancy. Can't imagine the type of person who could consider terminating a pregnancy because of their child's potential sexuality if it were possible to determine. Its a case where we take science too far if you ask me.
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:14 PM   #838
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I think that within 20 years many of us will have the chance to alter our genes, even as adults, so questions like this will certainly come up. People will have the choice to change their eye color, reverse balding, and slow/reverse aging.

Some people may choose to change their genes from gay to straight to straight again just to experience it. Some may choose to never alter their genes at all.

What will happen to sports and academics when everyone can run like a gazelle and have a 200 IQ?

Since this is the gay thread - that was why I asked if gay people would reverse the "gay gene" (assuming it is discovered and could be reversed). I am not saying that they should, I am just curious if they would.

Also - to piggyback on what anitram was talking about - what if your baby in utero was scanned and they discovered he/she had the gay gene but they could alter it to hetero, what would you choose? (or perhaps it's part of a standard checklist before every birth...)
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:45 PM   #839
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I'm all for genetic screening for genetic defects and risk factors, and would definitely choose for a child without them. The earth is over populated, we're already going down the drain as a species, if we could somehow get our population on top of the gene pool again, it might help us survive.

I see this completely different from having a gay child or not. Since it's not a defect nor a risk factor, but simply something comparable to being male or female, I wouldn't alter the gene.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 03-13-2015, 12:51 PM   #840
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I think that within 20 years many of us will have the chance to alter our genes, even as adults, so questions like this will certainly come up. People will have the choice to change their eye color, reverse balding, and slow/reverse aging.

Some people may choose to change their genes from gay to straight to straight again just to experience it. Some may choose to never alter their genes at all.

What will happen to sports and academics when everyone can run like a gazelle and have a 200 IQ?

Since this is the gay thread - that was why I asked if gay people would reverse the "gay gene" (assuming it is discovered and could be reversed). I am not saying that they should, I am just curious if they would.

Also - to piggyback on what anitram was talking about - what if your baby in utero was scanned and they discovered he/she had the gay gene but they could alter it to hetero, what would you choose? (or perhaps it's part of a standard checklist before every birth...)



To more straightforwardly answer the question, today as a out comfortable married gay man, there's no way I would choose to be straight if I could.

Had you asked me when I was 20, at that time, and keeping in mind that was 15 years ago, I might have said yes.

Also, I don't think there will ever be a specific "gay gene" that makes someone gay or straight. Like most things including heterosexuality, it arises as a complex interplay of nature and nurture, and is fixed at a very, very young age. The important thing to understand is that it is always involuntary, it poses no threat or harm to the person or others, actually enriches our understanding of the human experience, and the most damaging thing is lack of acceptance, by the person or others.
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