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Old 04-17-2014, 03:19 PM   #376
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best article of the week:

Quote:
Book: Lawyer who defended Calif. gay marriage ban plans daughter’s gay wedding

By Robert Barnes, Thursday, April 17, 12:00 PM

The conservative lawyer who defended California’s ban on gay marriage at the Supreme Court is at work on another project: planning his daughter’s upcoming same-sex wedding ceremony.

Charles J. Cooper, a former top official in the Reagan Justice Department and onetime “Republican lawyer of the year,” learned of his daughter’s sexual orientation during the legal battle over California’s Proposition 8, according to journalist Jo Becker’s soon-to-be-released book chronicling the movement to legalize same-sex marriage.

Ashley Lininger became engaged to a woman identified in the book only as Casey just after the Supreme Court accepted the Proposition 8 case in December 2012. Cooper, a noted Supreme Court practitioner, argued the case in March 2013.

The court ruled against Cooper’s clients, saying they did not have legal standing to challenge a federal district judge’s ruling that the ban was unconstitutional. Same-sex marriages then resumed in the nation’s most populous state.

In its limited ruling, the court sidestepped Cooper’s argument that there is no constitutional right to same-sex marriage and that decisions about whether to allow such unions should be left to the states and voters.

Cooper told Becker that he did not think it appropriate to comment on how he would vote on the issue should he have the opportunity.

“What I will say only is that my views evolve on issues of this kind the same way as other people’s do, and how I view this down the road may not be the way I view it now, or how I viewed it 10 years ago,” Cooper is quoted as saying.

Cooper joins a list of prominent Republicans — former vice president Dick Cheney and Sen. Rob Portman of Ohio among them — with children whose interests are at odds with party orthodoxy on gay marriage.

Becker wrote that Cooper and his daughter spent hours discussing the case while it was ongoing and disagreed about Cooper’s view that states had reason to enshrine the traditional definition of marriage in their constitutions and withhold the right from same-sex couples.

“I think the most upset I got was being called an ‘experiment’ that people deserved to see the outcome of before accepting,” Becker quoted Lininger as saying. “It just made me feel — alien, I guess.”

Lininger lives in Massachusetts, the first state to legalize same-sex marriage and now one of 17, in addition to the District of Columbia, where the unions are legal. She did not want to be interviewed for this story. Cooper said the same, although he offered a statement:

“My family is typical of families all across America. We love each other; we stand up for each other; and we pray for, and rejoice in, each other’s happiness. My daughter Ashley’s path in life has led her to happiness with a lovely young woman named Casey, and our family and Casey’s family are looking forward to celebrating their marriage in just a few weeks.”

He added: “As Becker reports in her book, I told Ashley that what matters most is that I love her and she loves me.”

In the book, Cooper said he left it up to his daughter — he married her mother, Debbie, when the girl was 7 and always refers to her as his daughter — whether she wanted to go public with her engagement during the litigation.

Although it might have made the point that personal concerns are different from questions of policy, Cooper said he was relieved she decided on privacy.

“I didn’t want, and I didn’t think she wanted, for her and Casey to suddenly become the most famous lesbians in America,” Cooper told Becker. “But can you imagine how riveting it would have been if at the oral argument I disclosed this? I kind of personified what I was arguing.”

Becker is an investigative reporter for The New York Times who won a Pulitzer Prize for national reporting when she worked for The Washington Post. For her book, “Forcing the Spring: Inside the Fight for Marriage Equality,” she was given unfettered access to the legal team seeking to overturn Proposition 8 — the odd-couple team of Republican Theodore Olson and Democrat David Boies — as well as the organization American Foundation for Equal Rights, which was formed to bring a case to the Supreme Court to recognize a constitutional right for same-sex couples to marry.

She did not have the same access to the legal teams defending Proposition 8 and the companion case that challenged the federal Defense of Marriage Act. But she wrote that Cooper granted her hours of interviews and allowed her to tell the story of his family.

Cooper granted few media interviews during the years-long litigation and was criticized by some conservatives for not being vigorous enough in his defense of traditional marriage.

He was haunted throughout the proceedings by a comment he made when the Proposition 8 case was at trial before U.S. District Judge Vaughn Walker. Walker asked Cooper how it would harm the state’s interest in encouraging heterosexual couples to marry and raise families if it also allowed same-sex couples to wed. “Your honor, my answer is, I don’t know. I don’t know,” Cooper eventually replied.

Cooper immediately regretted his words and spent the rest of the litigation trying to take them back. What he meant by the comment, he said, was that same-sex marriage was so new and untried — “an experiment” — that the answer was impossible to know.

Becker writes about how, through the years of litigation, the opposing lawyers and plaintiffs were tied together as the case moved through the process.

Cooper and Olson are old friends, usually part of the same elite conservative legal establishment. Cooper succeeded Olson as head of the Office of Legal Counsel in the Reagan Justice Department.

Cooper said in the book that he came to especially admire the lesbian couple who challenged Proposition 8, Kris Perry and Sandy Stier.

They returned the compliment in a statement about Cooper’s defense of Proposition 8 at the same time his daughter was planning to marry a woman.

“Some may find this contrast between public and private jarring, but in our opinion, loving an LGBT child unequivocally is the single most important thing any parent can do.”

The question of whether there is a constitutional right to marriage that states may not withhold from gay couples could return to the Supreme Court in time for its term beginning in October.

But it is not the Proposition 8 case that has been the impetus for an unbroken line of federal district court decisions that such bans are unconstitutional: The judges instead are relying on the court’s decision in the DOMA case, U.S. v. Windsor , that ordered the federal government to recognize same-sex marriages performed where they are legal.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:30 PM   #377
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There could be a few different takeaways from that article
a good one for many of the frequent posters in this forum is that attacking and belittling others is not the best way ti win converts to your point of view.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:55 PM   #378
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I get that he's saying his views have evolved over time, but it just strikes me, the whole "well, it's fine for my daughter, but no one else."

You see that come up with abortion as well. "I'm against abortion! ..... but can you help me find a doctor to help my 15 year old daughter take care of this little problem?"
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Old 04-17-2014, 05:55 PM   #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
It's a big current discussion within what might be known as "the gay community."

It's both complex, and simple.
I hear that this is a discussion within the AIDS prevention community at large. My brother keeps up on it a bit and said that advocates have pretty much given up on trying to promote condoms in Africa, mostly not because attitudes are so intractable but because Western governments and NGOs work so hard against to keep them out of people's hands, because of the promiscuity associations.
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Old 04-17-2014, 07:11 PM   #380
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i can only really speak for the gay male community (and really can't do that), but there are some who view this as a way for big Pharma to make a lot of money while encouraging unprotected sex, which could lead to the spread of other STDs and the emergence of resistant strands of HIV because some people don't take their other meds properly.

others believe that, in essence, this is no different than a woman remembering to take her birth control, and that total adherence to condom use over a lifetime is impossible to expect, and it's easier to remember to take a pill everyday than it is to always use a condom in the heat of the moment, and that this is the best way yet to reduce the transmission of HIV.

there's a lot to unpack here.
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:00 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
I get that he's saying his views have evolved over time, but it just strikes me, the whole "well, it's fine for my daughter, but no one else."

You see that come up with abortion as well. "I'm against abortion! ..... but can you help me find a doctor to help my 15 year old daughter take care of this little problem?"
A frequent Republican response to these kinds of things.
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:19 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i can only really speak for the gay male community (and really can't do that), but there are some who view this as a way for big Pharma to make a lot of money while encouraging unprotected sex, which could lead to the spread of other STDs and the emergence of resistant strands of HIV because some people don't take their other meds properly.

others believe that, in essence, this is no different than a woman remembering to take her birth control, and that total adherence to condom use over a lifetime is impossible to expect, and it's easier to remember to take a pill everyday than it is to always use a condom in the heat of the moment, and that this is the best way yet to reduce the transmission of HIV.

there's a lot to unpack here.

If I may ask, do you lean one way or another?
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:31 AM   #383
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If I may ask, do you lean one way or another?


It has to be a decision made between an individual and his doctor. And it should be covered by all health plans -- how terrifying if a business were to invoke it's apparent "religious freedom" and refuse to cover a drug like this, especially in HIV- individuals.

I suppose I view it like birth control. Were I a woman, I'd like to think Id take birth control and also use a condom, especially with new partners. Back when I was single, I was a Nazi about these things, but I can appreciate that people aren't perfect, so it's great to have two methods of protection. I don't think anyone actually likes condoms, and gay people have the same physical and emotional needs as anyone else. I also think that with marriage equality gay people now have structure, meaning, and purpose to dating, so that unprotected sex is an option once in a monogamous committed relationship. I think it's wonderful for serodiscordant couples (I know several), and I also think that taking a pill every day isn't that hard to do, and that doesn't mean that it's a license to be a slut. I also think it's a drug that people could go on and off depending on where they are in their lives. The most dangerous people out there are those who are + and unaware of their status. Those who know don't infect others.

Were I single today, it is something is talk to my doctor about and I'd have a stack of condoms readily available.

Sorry if we are in TMI territory.
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:10 AM   #384
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
I get that he's saying his views have evolved over time, but it just strikes me, the whole "well, it's fine for my daughter, but no one else."

You see that come up with abortion as well. "I'm against abortion! ..... but can you help me find a doctor to help my 15 year old daughter take care of this little problem?"
I kinda got the same vibe from that article..


The pills is a delicate issue indeed. I kinda find it strange that gay males are brandished as sluts right away, kinda the way straight women would be if they had lots of sex. Yet straight males never are...
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:20 AM   #385
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Can you imagine if there was a male birth control pill? If a man could take a pill every day and truthfully swear to a woman that his risk of impregnating her is tiny? I think many men, esp. single ones, might find that motivating. And I don't think conservatives would have a hard time framing that as a responsible action for a man to do.
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:25 AM   #386
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That certainly would be interesting. Wonder if conservatives would also claim that this would lead to more straight men having sex. Or would that be suddenly healthy and good rather than disgusting?

Smells like hypocrisy to me. I don't think anyone will be inclined to having more (unprotected) sex because of a pill. And either way it's none of my business. But if there's a pill out there that makes it safer from all involved, decreasing risks of diseases that wreck lives and cost millions of treatment money, then why the hell are we not funding this???
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 04-18-2014, 08:50 AM   #387
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I think morality (or whatever) has no place in a public health debate. You go with where the science takes you.
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Old 04-28-2014, 08:18 AM   #388
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I hope this Sterling situation sheds some light on the Eich situation.
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Old 04-28-2014, 10:47 AM   #389
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What more is there to say, though?

I actually watched that Bill Maher segment where he suggests of a "gay mafia" as a joke... whoever that chick was who opened her mouth before Maher needs to get her head out of her ass.

She actually justified Eich's donation by saying "I think it's unjust. President Obama didn't even support gay marriage in 2008." Umm what?
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Old 04-28-2014, 03:08 PM   #390
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Yeah I'm sure he didn't. It was obviously all just some election stunt....
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Originally Posted by GraceRyan View Post
And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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