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Old 01-13-2007, 06:55 PM   #46
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But there is not the support granted to the terrorist gangs by the mainstream zionist organisations, nor the genoicidal nutjob zionists having their goals written as a goal for the nation of Israel.
Yisrael_Beiteinu is part of the current coalition government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu


From reading their own website they appear to want a theocracy, essentially, albeit admittedly a milder form than found in Islamic theocracies.

http://www.yisraelbeytenu.com/
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:35 AM   #47
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Tell that to the so-called Indians.

Damn straight!
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Old 01-14-2007, 01:48 AM   #48
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Tell that to the so-called Indians.
I'm not condoning what the US did do in driving the Native Americans from their land, but I really don't recall an organized movement to murder innocent Native American men, women and children.
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Old 01-14-2007, 02:16 AM   #49
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Yisrael_Beiteinu is part of the current coalition government.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu


From reading their own website they appear to want a theocracy, essentially, albeit admittedly a milder form than found in Islamic theocracies.

http://www.yisraelbeytenu.com/
But Hamas is the Palestinian government and Yisrael Beytenu supports a two state (not a one state) solution.
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Old 01-14-2007, 06:27 AM   #50
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I'm puzzled as to what in the cursory platform summary provided on Yisrael Beytenu's English site would suggest a "theocratic" agenda. Shas or perhaps UTJ would be the obvious choices if you want to make a case for groups with those tendencies having attained the validation of Knesset seats. Yisrael Beytenu, I think, would be better described as an ultra-nationalist party (with the racist and authoritarian leanings that label typically implies) whose support base is almost wholly comprised of secular Russian-speaking immigrant Jews from the former USSR (in potential a huge constituency). As A_W noted, they do very much support a two-state solution--what makes their vision of that ugly is that it's clearly driven by a desire to get ethnic Arabs out of Israel rather than any sense of justice concerning the territorial issues.

Which, between the Hamas charter and the seemingly more contradictory statements by various Hamas officals concerning Israel's right to exist, better reflects their "true" goals and plans for the future is an open question and probably one that only history can resolve.

As far as Native Americans' relevance(?) to any of this goes, 'Manifest Destiny' was most definitely a pillar of US government policy during the nineteenth century (Indian Removal Act, Dawes Act etc.). Although none of these policies openly advocated violent coercion per se, it would be more than a little disingenuous to suggest that any violence, flagrant abuse of due process in treaty negotiations, drastically reduced quality of life for both tribes and individuals, forced acculturation programs, mass death and so on which resulted from them was just random bad luck and not in any sense "organized." It's not, however, something I would pin on the American Revolution, as most of the atrocities committed on both sides during that time period (Gnadenhutten, Wyoming Valley etc.) grew out of tensions stoked by some Native Americans having sided with the colonists and others with the British, rather than any formalized 'agenda' of either side toward the other at that point in time.
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Old 01-14-2007, 08:32 AM   #51
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I'm not condoning what the US did do in driving the Native Americans from their land, but I really don't recall an organized movement to murder innocent Native American men, women and children.
Well, in some cases they poisoned the wells Indians used for drinking water with cholera.

Later they put them into reservates that hardly provided enough food to feed all the people since they got the poorest pieces of land.

So there wasn't a general movement like later with the Nazi's that tried to kill all Jews, gays, communists, disabled, gypsy and so on.
But single movements were carried out.

Also in Ireland it wasn't really tried to kill all the Irish. It was only tried to get them converted from the Catholic believe to the Protestantism.

Then, the Great Famine was "exploited" to bring the Catholics into a situation where they didn't have much choice. Either dying, or leaving the country, or joining the Anglican church.
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Old 01-14-2007, 09:35 AM   #52
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Well, in some cases they poisoned the wells Indians used for drinking water with cholera.
Do you have a source for this? The only documented instance of attempted deliberate infection of Native Americans I've ever heard of was in 1763 when a British captain named Simeon Ecuyer gave some of the Delaware Indians, who were besieging the British at Fort Pitt, two blankets which had been exposed to smallpox in the Fort's hospital (it's not known if this worked). Cholera was believed until the mid-1850s to be caused by "bad air." It is thought by historians to be the case that the Japanese poisoned some water supplies with cholera during the Sino-Japanese War, but I've never heard of anyone else doing this.
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Old 01-14-2007, 09:47 AM   #53
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I'm not condoning what the US did do in driving the Native Americans from their land, but I really don't recall an organized movement to murder innocent Native American men, women and children.
The Indian Removal Act was a federal law.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:28 AM   #54
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The Indian Removal Act was a federal law.
But there is nothing in the Indian Removal Act that orders or even condones killing any Native Americans.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:33 AM   #55
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Do you have a source for this? The only documented instance of attempted deliberate infection of Native Americans I've ever heard of was in 1763 when a British captain named Simeon Ecuyer gave some of the Delaware Indians, who were besieging the British at Fort Pitt, two blankets which had been exposed to smallpox in the Fort's hospital (it's not known if this worked). Cholera was believed until the mid-1850s to be caused by "bad air." It is thought by historians to be the case that the Japanese poisoned some water supplies with cholera during the Sino-Japanese War, but I've never heard of anyone else doing this.
Hm, I have to admit that the source is my mother who was very interested in the Indian culture and history when she was younger.
She is not an well-known expert, so of course it's hardly a source.
And I can't say where exactly she read it.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:33 AM   #56
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But there is nothing in the Indian Removal Act that orders or even condones killing any Native Americans.
Well, I kind of tried to address this a few posts above...it is true that laws like that, Dawes Act etc. didn't explicitly advocate violence but in light of how their implementation unfolded, it's pretty darn hard to make a case that they didn't effectively cause it.
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Old 01-14-2007, 10:51 AM   #57
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But there is nothing in the Indian Removal Act that orders or even condones killing any Native Americans.
No, just forcibly removing them from their ancestral homes, that's all. If they die in the process, well, that's too bad, but certainly not the intent.
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Old 01-14-2007, 11:16 AM   #58
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Of course they would never write something like "Erase the Indian population".
Like the Nazis didn't call it "Kill all Jews", but Final Solution (Endlösung der Judenfrage).
In the Wannsee protocols there is the only written evidence that they planned on killing all European Jews, and you can read it from figures of the concentration camps and the production of Zyklon B.

I don't want to compare the Nazis with the settlers in America.
But there you can see that the intention behind something can be somewhat hidden in what you write.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:42 PM   #59
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I think what my American ancestors did to the Native Americans is very comparable to the Nazis. Biggest difference is, history is usually kind(er) to the winners in any conflict, so what white America did is somehow acceptable. This was also a society that permitted slavery, let's not forget.
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Old 01-14-2007, 12:57 PM   #60
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I think what my American ancestors did to the Native Americans is very comparable to the Nazis. Biggest difference is, history is usually kind(er) to the winners in any conflict, so what white America did is somehow acceptable. This was also a society that permitted slavery, let's not forget.
For the record, I have said that I don't condone what they did to the American Indians. That was a very ugly and cruel part of our history. However, driving people from their lands and forcing them to live on reservations is not comparable to mass gassings.
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