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Old 01-04-2007, 07:02 AM   #31
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I think it's fair to say that I have a lot less respect for any religion now than I did five or so years ago.
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Old 01-04-2007, 07:06 AM   #32
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Well I wasn't on Interference back in the day but I can tell you that I opposed the war from the beginning. I didn't buy the WMD urgency, I didn't believe the Iraq-terrorism-9/11 connection. I just remember feeling helpless that something that to me was so obviously wrong was going to happen anyway.

I can't say I knew it would be this bad, or that it would drag on this long.

But I was always against the war.

You'll just have to take my word for it.

And good points about democracy in Iraq. The U.S. is not and has never been strictly a friend of democracy per se. We are friends with those who are friendly with us, regardless of their type of government.
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Old 01-04-2007, 07:18 AM   #33
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And I still think that is a cause of a lot of problems; it's why there was no urgency to stop the Gulf States or Pakistan backing Islamists in Afghanistan, why Egypt is payed off with big money and the Muslim Brotherhood attracts popular support and it's plain to see the House of Saud has it's enemies.

In the absence of political avenues terrorists thrive; maybe it was a vain hope that Arab states can ever have moderate political systems, maybe it was too little far too late. It seems clear by the lack of support given to pro-democracy activists that this administration was not serious in it's support; and if that is the case then taking halfway actions that will be undone seems like utter madness.

My opinion of the Saddam - Islamist Terrorist link has changed, I thought it was laughable in 2002 - 2003 but since then the evidence of Saddam wooing some groups like MILF and paying off bombers in Palestine shows that there was a pattern of support; perhaps not out of religious conviction as much as cynical pandering to keep internal Islamist movements from gathering power but there nontheless.
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Old 01-04-2007, 08:13 AM   #34
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My husband told me that the prez was full of shit, lying through his teeth about the WMD. Still shocked by 9/11, I couldn't believe an American president would lie so blatantly. Thanks Mr. Bush! All the money in the world can't buy what you threw away so you could have your war.
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Old 01-05-2007, 02:52 AM   #35
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And I still think that is a cause of a lot of problems; it's why there was no urgency to stop the Gulf States or Pakistan backing Islamists in Afghanistan, why Egypt is payed off with big money and the Muslim Brotherhood attracts popular support and it's plain to see the House of Saud has it's enemies.

It seems clear by the lack of support given to pro-democracy activists that this administration was not serious in it's support; and if that is the case then taking halfway actions that will be undone seems like utter madness.
Yep.

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My opinion of the Saddam - Islamist Terrorist link has changed, I thought it was laughable in 2002 - 2003 but since then the evidence of Saddam wooing some groups like MILF and paying off bombers in Palestine shows that there was a pattern of support; perhaps not out of religious conviction as much as cynical pandering to keep internal Islamist movements from gathering power but there nontheless.
I do think his support was populist pandering but I don't think it was anything serious. Saddam Hussein had one goal, and one goal only. To keep himself in power. Making a show of supporting terrorism would do that. Actively participating in terror activities against the U.S. and it's interests would not.
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:23 PM   #36
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On another forum, a poster made this comment:

"Those of us who got things so wrong on Iraq should think long and hard before pontificating on other things."

A sentiment sadly lacking on FYM.
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:32 PM   #37
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Comparing myself now to then, I've become more center-right on economic issues, and I'm not entirely sure how to classify my social stances, because support for "gay anything" gets you painted with an "extreme leftist" brush, unfortunately (just as I'm sure that opponents of racial segregation had been labelled prior to the 1960s).

And how to label my political stances these days is completely in upheaval, because I find myself disagreeing with large portions of the Democratic, Republican, Libertarian, and Green Party mindsets.

As for prior to the Iraq War here, I do remember myself stating how I felt that the sanctions did not work, and that it would be best to either end them or to take Saddam out completely. In some ways, that's still the only choices that we had, like it or not. However, I was greatly disappointed with how Bush sold this war and carried it out. It makes me wonder if we would have had more global support for this conflict, if we didn't have such a bumbling idiot for a leader. The whole "I don't care what the world thinks" attitude, I believe, has contributed to the failure in Iraq, not to mention emboldening populist autocrats in Iran and (an increasingly autocratic) Venezuela.

On the other hand, that same brazen attitude has cultivated a different attitude in the UN, I think. The Security Council nations seem to be more hawkish than they were in the past.

I guess I'll end up deferring to history to figure out what all of this means.
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:46 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
My opinion of the Saddam - Islamist Terrorist link has changed, I thought it was laughable in 2002 - 2003 but since then the evidence of Saddam wooing some groups like MILF and paying off bombers in Palestine shows that there was a pattern of support; perhaps not out of religious conviction as much as cynical pandering to keep internal Islamist movements from gathering power but there nontheless.

I fail to see how Saddam (allegedly) paying off 'bombers in Palestine' in way substantiates a 'Saddam - Islamist Terrorist link',
given that the Palestinian cause has nothing to do with terrorism and is a legitimate campaign for freedom and statehood - just like, for example, the US War of Independence or the Irish War of Independence in 1919-21.
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Old 01-13-2007, 01:58 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



I fail to see how Saddam (allegedly) paying off 'bombers in Palestine' in way substantiates a 'Saddam - Islamist Terrorist link',
given that the Palestinian cause has nothing to do with terrorism
You don't see how targeting and blowing up innocent men and women is terrorism?

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and is in fact a legitimate campaign for freedom and statehood - just like, for example, the US War of Independence or the Irish War of Independence in 1919-21.
How many times have we been through the whole "American Revolutionary War compared to the Palestinian/Israel conflict"? And yet, no one has come up with any examples of American Revolutionaries targeting and murdering innocent men, women and children.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:05 PM   #40
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There's an easy, rather objective response to your debate, and it generally holds true:

A "revolution" is a successful campaign, whereas a "revolt" is a failed campaign. As such, those involved are "Founding Fathers" in a "revolution" and "terrorists" in a "revolt." It gets ambiguous, obviously, in instances where the conflict is currently ongoing.

I should note that none of this is meant to imply support for rather unsavory groups like Hamas, whom I have nothing but disgust for.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:05 PM   #41
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Has there ever been a war where innocents haven't been killed?
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:07 PM   #42
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Giving $25,000. to a family after the Israelis have blown up or bull dozed their home, and made 15-25 people homeless, is something Americans should have been doing instead of leaving it for Saddam

Was the family even aware that their son was going blow himself up?

most likely not


Calling this supporting terror is just bull shit, there is a lot of Israeli behavior that the U S supports that is more questionable.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:11 PM   #43
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And yet, no one has come up with any examples of American Revolutionaries targeting and murdering innocent men, women and children.
Tell that to the so-called Indians.

And there are plenty of examples of Zionists doing this in the 1940s
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:23 PM   #44
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But there is not the support granted to the terrorist gangs by the mainstream zionist organisations, nor the genoicidal nutjob zionists having their goals written as a goal for the nation of Israel.
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Old 01-13-2007, 02:30 PM   #45
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Originally posted by financeguy



I fail to see how Saddam (allegedly) paying off 'bombers in Palestine' in way substantiates a 'Saddam - Islamist Terrorist link',
given that the Palestinian cause has nothing to do with terrorism and is a legitimate campaign for freedom and statehood - just like, for example, the US War of Independence or the Irish War of Independence in 1919-21.
Freedom is more than sovereignty and self-determination; the state model built into the Hamas charter is despotic and theocratic, and would have gross impositions on the freedoms of Palestinian Christians and Muslims alike. It is also very honest about it's goalsFrom a zionist news organisation, surely.
Quote:
One by one, at least 21 families came up to receive their cheques from the Palestinian Arab Liberation Front (PALF), a local pro-Iraq group.

A Hamas suicide bomber's family got $25,000 while the others - relatives of militants killed in fighting or civilians killed during Israeli military operations - all received $10,000 each.

Another banner in the hall described the cheques as the "blessings of Saddam Hussein" and PALF speakers extolled the Iraqi leader in fiery speeches.

"Saddam Hussein considers those who die in martyrdom attacks as people who have won the highest degree of martyrdom," said one.

The party estimated that Iraq had paid out $35m to Palestinian families since the current uprising began in September 2000.

Saddam's avowed support for the Palestinians, and his missile attacks on Israel during the Gulf War, have won him wide backing in the territories.
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