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Old 11-11-2002, 08:35 PM   #31
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Here's a FAQ on anonymous proxies:

What is an anonymous proxy server?
Anonymous proxy servers hide your IP address and thereby prevent your from unauthorized access to your computer through the Internet. They do not provide anyone with your IP address and effectively hide any information about you and your reading interests. Besides that, they donít even let anyone know that you are surfing through a proxy server. Anonymous proxy servers can be used for all kinds of Web-services, such as Web-Mail (MSN Hot Mail, Yahoo mail), web-chat rooms, FTP archives, etc.


It IS anonymous unless you use one that actually NOT an anonymous proxy. Of course, you conspiracy theorists out there will believe anything you want, so this arguement doesn't matter.
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Old 11-11-2002, 08:36 PM   #32
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Re: *runs off to write screenplay* heheh..

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Originally posted by pub crawler
Sure, why not?
Unless this is some super secret Skull & Crossbones thing (for you conspiracy theory fans), I really doubt that our current administration has this as an official or unofficial goal.

I know a pastor who was invited by the White House to provide feedback on various issues. If he had gotten any hint of this policy (which amounts to "let's trigger the Second Coming so all us good Christians will be raptured and don't have to go to work tomorrow"), he would have come unglued.

The religious right has their agenda Ė I donít believe it goes this far.
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Old 11-11-2002, 09:35 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder
Here's a FAQ on anonymous proxies:

What is an anonymous proxy server?
Anonymous proxy servers hide your IP address and thereby prevent your from unauthorized access to your computer through the Internet. They do not provide anyone with your IP address and effectively hide any information about you and your reading interests. Besides that, they donít even let anyone know that you are surfing through a proxy server. Anonymous proxy servers can be used for all kinds of Web-services, such as Web-Mail (MSN Hot Mail, Yahoo mail), web-chat rooms, FTP archives, etc.


It IS anonymous unless you use one that actually NOT an anonymous proxy. Of course, you conspiracy theorists out there will believe anything you want, so this arguement doesn't matter.
Hello? IP addresses are more than just some identification number. An anonymous proxy server still has to receive your IP address--this is how servers and clients communicate to each other! If that particular anonymous proxy server is being monitored, though, there goes all your desires for anonymity. All an anonymous proxy server does is direct traffic through it and appear as if it is requesting the information, rather than you. This does *not* mean that the proxy server itself is not recording information about you. It just means that any site it "requests" to is not receiving your information. This will successfully thwart most amateur and intermediate hackers; but certainly not something as advanced and tenacious as the federal government.

Sorry...there is no real anonymity on the internet!

Melon
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Old 11-11-2002, 10:01 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Hello? IP addresses are more than just some identification number. An anonymous proxy server still has to receive your IP address--this is how servers and clients communicate to each other! If that particular anonymous proxy server is being monitored, though, there goes all your desires for anonymity. All an anonymous proxy server does is direct traffic through it and appear as if it is requesting the information, rather than you. This does *not* mean that the proxy server itself is not recording information about you. It just means that any site it "requests" to is not receiving your information. This will successfully thwart most amateur and intermediate hackers; but certainly not something as advanced and tenacious as the federal government.

Sorry...there is no real anonymity on the internet!

Melon
That's why hackers commonly talk about "REAL" anonymous proxies. Anyone can setup a proxy with enough bandwidth. If you've ever hacked anything, then you know how to look for the right type of anonymous proxies. Give me a case where the govt. has actually seized logs from an anon. proxy.
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Old 11-11-2002, 10:17 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder
That's why hackers commonly talk about "REAL" anonymous proxies. Anyone can setup a proxy with enough bandwidth. If you've ever hacked anything, then you know how to look for the right type of anonymous proxies. Give me a case where the govt. has actually seized logs from an anon. proxy.
Ah see...this is the difference. This thread is about *theory,* not reality. The current reality? Yes...there is a lot we can get away with. But all you need is your ISP to change its mind. A little black box hooked up to a computer at Verizon, for instance, is all the government really needs to be able to know exactly what is going on with all of Verizon's customers. If the particular proxy server is hooked up to Verizon, in this example, and is looking at suspicious sites, then, yes, the government could go after the anonymous proxy owner, and I'm sure they could coerce the owner to hook up some sort of device to track who is using it in cases for law enforcement. It doesn't take much to track where an IP address is located. There are "WHOIS" sites all over the place, and I've even used them before.

The government recently did use the "black box" to spy on one particular customer at an ISP, but, as they had admitted, the box could have been used to spy on everyone, if they had chosen to.

Have a good night, boywonder.

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Old 11-11-2002, 10:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Ah see...this is the difference. This thread is about *theory,* not reality. The current reality? Yes...there is a lot we can get away with. But all you need is your ISP to change its mind. A little black box hooked up to a computer at Verizon, for instance, is all the government really needs to be able to know exactly what is going on with all of Verizon's customers. If the particular proxy server is hooked up to Verizon, in this example, and is looking at suspicious sites, then, yes, the government could go after the anonymous proxy owner, and I'm sure they could coerce the owner to hook up some sort of device to track who is using it in cases for law enforcement. It doesn't take much to track where an IP address is located. There are "WHOIS" sites all over the place, and I've even used them before.

The government recently did use the "black box" to spy on one particular customer at an ISP, but, as they had admitted, the box could have been used to spy on everyone, if they had chosen to.

Have a good night, boywonder.

Melon
I don't like to entertain conspiracy theorists, because they're all pretty insane to start with, but does this theory try to explain why the government would want to coerce ever anonymous proxy owner? How will they know which ones to target? How can they target all of them? The government, in my opinion, would not want to directly contact individuals (proxy servers) who may take that information and use it against them in the media. They tend to me indirect observers.
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Old 11-12-2002, 12:45 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder
Does anyone really believe that the government hasn't been able to do this in the past or hasn't been doing it to begin with? What do you think the NSA is exactly? What do you think the FBI's carnivore system is being used for? Let's not pretend that this is anything new or that our freedom in this country has ever been based upon our privacy. Our affairs can constantly be monitored and this has been true for a LONG time.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/carnivore/carnivore2.htm
boywonder, first you acknowledge that the technology that could be used to monitor the activities of private citizens has been around "for a LONG time," then you spend the rest of this thread arguing that a private person can transact on the Internet with absolute anonymity, and you appear to assert that government authorities cannot track a private citizen's Internet transactions even if they wanted to, as long as said private citizen transacts through an anonymous proxy server.

The issue here is not conspiracy theories, it's personal privacy. You argue that our freedom in not based on privacy. Very well.
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Old 11-12-2002, 03:48 AM   #38
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Carnivore is a very limited system. It cannot monitor every electromagnetic wave. I'm arguing that there are ways to bypass government spying to some extent, but they're probably capable of monitoring you if they REALLY wanted to. They could setup fake anonymous proxies, etc. The thing is, why would the government go through all that trouble to track the activity of the average citizen?

Also, why harp on the means of doing this? Isn't this just pointless speculation fueled by one too many dystopian novels being used to attack Bush.
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Old 11-12-2002, 10:01 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder
They could setup fake anonymous proxies, etc. The thing is, why would the government go through all that trouble to track the activity of the average citizen?
To track copyright enforcement--MP3 downloading, etc.--and to watch for suspicious opinions that could be construed as leading to illegal activity.

And your constant adoration of anonymous proxies is starting to get laughable. All the government needs to do is monitor from the ISP level! Didn't you read my little post on what the government did at Verizon? There are also 13 key computers, apparently, that make up the internet backbone. If all of these go down, so will the internet. Do you not think it is easy to set up a tracking device at this level?

Quote:
Also, why harp on the means of doing this? Isn't this just pointless speculation fueled by one too many dystopian novels being used to attack Bush.
I don't give a flying f*ck about partisanship with this topic. This is about privacy, which seemed to be a very Republican ideal, frankly. Hello? Even good old Phil Gramm was a co-writer of a very important privacy law in 1999 (Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act); but now we're all so ready to throw away all notions of privacy all for "security." But I'm sure the people of Iraq feel safe with their "Father" as well.

Melon
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Old 11-12-2002, 10:19 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by melon


To track copyright enforcement--MP3 downloading, etc.--and to watch for suspicious opinions that could be construed as leading to illegal activity.
And worse.. once they create such a network against crime it's easy to abuse it for discrediting your political oponent.


Quote:
[i](Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act); but now we're all so ready to throw away all notions of privacy all for "security." But I'm sure the people of Iraq feel safe with their "Father" as well.
Melon [/B]
That's the point - there are allwys people who favour security over privacy and vice versa. People who favour a Country with a strong Police and Secret Services just saw their chance with 9/11 to create all the laws they ever dreamed of.
(And they tend to ignore the fact that it was the mistake of humans in the Secret Services and not the lack of laws which lead to success for the terrorists.

Klaus
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Old 11-12-2002, 09:07 PM   #41
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Melon:

Weren't you in favor of the "smart card" awhile back after your trip to Europe?

~U2Alabama
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Old 11-12-2002, 10:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
Weren't you in favor of the "smart card" awhile back after your trip to Europe?
A smart card, really, is just a larger-size alternative to the magnetic strip on the back of credit cards. In fact, one of my credit cards has a smart chip on it; it just happens to have no readers to it here in the U.S. The commercial application for that chip, as with this card, could be to download special offers that can be redeemed with it. Any notions of that, at this point, are still a few years away.

Fears of abuse by the right with the smart chip were largely unfounded here in America. And yet, these same groups are largely applauding the potential erosion of privacy with the current administration. I guess things change when your political ideology is in power. Truthfully, time will ultimately tell as to whether we become a police state or not...but, at that point, it would be too late to reverse.

Melon
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Old 11-13-2002, 02:27 AM   #43
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I find this whole argument of Security Vs Privacy interesting. What kind of information do we all think the American government will acquire that they don't already have access to? Most ordinary citizens have nothing else to reveal from gathering the type of information that this kind of plan will attempt. Government and marketing companies already find out where you spend your money, what your interests are, probably what kind of political party you support, even demographical data exists in statistical bureaus already. I dread to use the tired argument that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about, as that does not address the issue of a breach of privacy that so many are concerned with. But honestly, will any government agency pay attention to you with how you live right now? If it is successful, it will only pick up those individuals worthy of having a second look at. No government really cares about what the average joe schmoe is doing with their lives. You could go on file and they and you wouldn't even notice each other. Maybe I'm too blase and quick to brush it all off, it could very well be overstepping the privacy mark, but I figure, what there is to know about me is already known.
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Old 11-13-2002, 10:58 AM   #44
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Can I just reiterate that I really miss my civil rights and liberties?
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Old 11-13-2002, 11:33 AM   #45
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Quote:
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Can I just reiterate that I really miss my civil rights and liberties?
Just curious, but how, on a daily basis, are you impacted?
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