The Future American Police State

[boywonder]

Here's a FAQ on anonymous proxies:

What is an anonymous proxy server?
Anonymous proxy servers hide your IP address and thereby prevent your from unauthorized access to your computer through the Internet. They do not provide anyone with your IP address and effectively hide any information about you and your reading interests. Besides that, they don?t even let anyone know that you are surfing through a proxy server. Anonymous proxy servers can be used for all kinds of Web-services, such as Web-Mail (MSN Hot Mail, Yahoo mail), web-chat rooms, FTP archives, etc.


It IS anonymous unless you use one that actually NOT an anonymous proxy. Of course, you conspiracy theorists out there will believe anything you want, so this arguement doesn't matter.

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: *runs off to write screenplay* heheh..

Sure, why not?

Unless this is some super secret Skull & Crossbones thing (for you conspiracy theory fans), I really doubt that our current administration has this as an official or unofficial goal.

I know a pastor who was invited by the White House to provide feedback on various issues. If he had gotten any hint of this policy (which amounts to "let's trigger the Second Coming so all us good Christians will be raptured and don't have to go to work tomorrow"), he would have come unglued.

The religious right has their agenda ? I don?t believe it goes this far.

 

[melon]

Here's a FAQ on anonymous proxies:

What is an anonymous proxy server?
Anonymous proxy servers hide your IP address and thereby prevent your from unauthorized access to your computer through the Internet. They do not provide anyone with your IP address and effectively hide any information about you and your reading interests. Besides that, they don?t even let anyone know that you are surfing through a proxy server. Anonymous proxy servers can be used for all kinds of Web-services, such as Web-Mail (MSN Hot Mail, Yahoo mail), web-chat rooms, FTP archives, etc.


It IS anonymous unless you use one that actually NOT an anonymous proxy. Of course, you conspiracy theorists out there will believe anything you want, so this arguement doesn't matter.

Hello? IP addresses are more than just some identification number. An anonymous proxy server still has to receive your IP address--this is how servers and clients communicate to each other! If that particular anonymous proxy server is being monitored, though, there goes all your desires for anonymity. All an anonymous proxy server does is direct traffic through it and appear as if it is requesting the information, rather than you. This does *not* mean that the proxy server itself is not recording information about you. It just means that any site it "requests" to is not receiving your information. This will successfully thwart most amateur and intermediate hackers; but certainly not something as advanced and tenacious as the federal government.

Sorry...there is no real anonymity on the internet!

Melon

 

[boywonder]

Hello? IP addresses are more than just some identification number. An anonymous proxy server still has to receive your IP address--this is how servers and clients communicate to each other! If that particular anonymous proxy server is being monitored, though, there goes all your desires for anonymity. All an anonymous proxy server does is direct traffic through it and appear as if it is requesting the information, rather than you. This does *not* mean that the proxy server itself is not recording information about you. It just means that any site it "requests" to is not receiving your information. This will successfully thwart most amateur and intermediate hackers; but certainly not something as advanced and tenacious as the federal government.

Sorry...there is no real anonymity on the internet!

Melon

That's why hackers commonly talk about "REAL" anonymous proxies. Anyone can setup a proxy with enough bandwidth. If you've ever hacked anything, then you know how to look for the right type of anonymous proxies. Give me a case where the govt. has actually seized logs from an anon. proxy.

 

[melon]

That's why hackers commonly talk about "REAL" anonymous proxies. Anyone can setup a proxy with enough bandwidth. If you've ever hacked anything, then you know how to look for the right type of anonymous proxies. Give me a case where the govt. has actually seized logs from an anon. proxy.

Ah see...this is the difference. This thread is about *theory,* not reality. The current reality? Yes...there is a lot we can get away with. But all you need is your ISP to change its mind. A little black box hooked up to a computer at Verizon, for instance, is all the government really needs to be able to know exactly what is going on with all of Verizon's customers. If the particular proxy server is hooked up to Verizon, in this example, and is looking at suspicious sites, then, yes, the government could go after the anonymous proxy owner, and I'm sure they could coerce the owner to hook up some sort of device to track who is using it in cases for law enforcement. It doesn't take much to track where an IP address is located. There are "WHOIS" sites all over the place, and I've even used them before.

The government recently did use the "black box" to spy on one particular customer at an ISP, but, as they had admitted, the box could have been used to spy on everyone, if they had chosen to.

Have a good night, boywonder.

Melon

 

[boywonder]

Ah see...this is the difference. This thread is about *theory,* not reality. The current reality? Yes...there is a lot we can get away with. But all you need is your ISP to change its mind. A little black box hooked up to a computer at Verizon, for instance, is all the government really needs to be able to know exactly what is going on with all of Verizon's customers. If the particular proxy server is hooked up to Verizon, in this example, and is looking at suspicious sites, then, yes, the government could go after the anonymous proxy owner, and I'm sure they could coerce the owner to hook up some sort of device to track who is using it in cases for law enforcement. It doesn't take much to track where an IP address is located. There are "WHOIS" sites all over the place, and I've even used them before.

The government recently did use the "black box" to spy on one particular customer at an ISP, but, as they had admitted, the box could have been used to spy on everyone, if they had chosen to.

Have a good night, boywonder.

Melon

I don't like to entertain conspiracy theorists, because they're all pretty insane to start with, but does this theory try to explain why the government would want to coerce ever anonymous proxy owner? How will they know which ones to target? How can they target all of them? The government, in my opinion, would not want to directly contact individuals (proxy servers) who may take that information and use it against them in the media. They tend to me indirect observers.

 

[pub crawler]

Does anyone really believe that the government hasn't been able to do this in the past or hasn't been doing it to begin with? What do you think the NSA is exactly? What do you think the FBI's carnivore system is being used for? Let's not pretend that this is anything new or that our freedom in this country has ever been based upon our privacy. Our affairs can constantly be monitored and this has been true for a LONG time.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/carnivore/carnivore2.htm

boywonder, first you acknowledge that the technology that could be used to monitor the activities of private citizens has been around "for a LONG time," then you spend the rest of this thread arguing that a private person can transact on the Internet with absolute anonymity, and you appear to assert that government authorities cannot track a private citizen's Internet transactions even if they wanted to, as long as said private citizen transacts through an anonymous proxy server.

The issue here is not conspiracy theories, it's personal privacy. You argue that our freedom in not based on privacy. Very well.

 

[boywonder]

Carnivore is a very limited system. It cannot monitor every electromagnetic wave. I'm arguing that there are ways to bypass government spying to some extent, but they're probably capable of monitoring you if they REALLY wanted to. They could setup fake anonymous proxies, etc. The thing is, why would the government go through all that trouble to track the activity of the average citizen?

Also, why harp on the means of doing this? Isn't this just pointless speculation fueled by one too many dystopian novels being used to attack Bush.

 

[melon]

They could setup fake anonymous proxies, etc. The thing is, why would the government go through all that trouble to track the activity of the average citizen?

To track copyright enforcement--MP3 downloading, etc.--and to watch for suspicious opinions that could be construed as leading to illegal activity.

And your constant adoration of anonymous proxies is starting to get laughable. All the government needs to do is monitor from the ISP level! Didn't you read my little post on what the government did at Verizon? There are also 13 key computers, apparently, that make up the internet backbone. If all of these go down, so will the internet. Do you not think it is easy to set up a tracking device at this level?

Also, why harp on the means of doing this? Isn't this just pointless speculation fueled by one too many dystopian novels being used to attack Bush.

I don't give a flying f*ck about partisanship with this topic. This is about privacy, which seemed to be a very Republican ideal, frankly. Hello? Even good old Phil Gramm was a co-writer of a very important privacy law in 1999 (Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act); but now we're all so ready to throw away all notions of privacy all for "security." But I'm sure the people of Iraq feel safe with their "Father" as well.

Melon

 

[Klaus]

To track copyright enforcement--MP3 downloading, etc.--and to watch for suspicious opinions that could be construed as leading to illegal activity.

And worse.. once they create such a network against crime it's easy to abuse it for discrediting your political oponent.

(Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act); but now we're all so ready to throw away all notions of privacy all for "security." But I'm sure the people of Iraq feel safe with their "Father" as well.
Melon [/B]

That's the point - there are allwys people who favour security over privacy and vice versa. People who favour a Country with a strong Police and Secret Services just saw their chance with 9/11 to create all the laws they ever dreamed of.
(And they tend to ignore the fact that it was the mistake of humans in the Secret Services and not the lack of laws which lead to success for the terrorists.

Klaus

 

[U2Bama]

Melon:

Weren't you in favor of the "smart card" awhile back after your trip to Europe?

~U2Alabama

 

[melon]

Weren't you in favor of the "smart card" awhile back after your trip to Europe?

A smart card, really, is just a larger-size alternative to the magnetic strip on the back of credit cards. In fact, one of my credit cards has a smart chip on it; it just happens to have no readers to it here in the U.S. The commercial application for that chip, as with this card, could be to download special offers that can be redeemed with it. Any notions of that, at this point, are still a few years away.

Fears of abuse by the right with the smart chip were largely unfounded here in America. And yet, these same groups are largely applauding the potential erosion of privacy with the current administration. I guess things change when your political ideology is in power. Truthfully, time will ultimately tell as to whether we become a police state or not...but, at that point, it would be too late to reverse.

Melon

 

[Angela Harlem]

I find this whole argument of Security Vs Privacy interesting. What kind of information do we all think the American government will acquire that they don't already have access to? Most ordinary citizens have nothing else to reveal from gathering the type of information that this kind of plan will attempt. Government and marketing companies already find out where you spend your money, what your interests are, probably what kind of political party you support, even demographical data exists in statistical bureaus already. I dread to use the tired argument that if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about, as that does not address the issue of a breach of privacy that so many are concerned with. But honestly, will any government agency pay attention to you with how you live right now? If it is successful, it will only pick up those individuals worthy of having a second look at. No government really cares about what the average joe schmoe is doing with their lives. You could go on file and they and you wouldn't even notice each other. Maybe I'm too blase and quick to brush it all off, it could very well be overstepping the privacy mark, but I figure, what there is to know about me is already known.

 

[Not George Lucas]

Can I just reiterate that I really miss my civil rights and liberties?

 

[nbcrusader]

Can I just reiterate that I really miss my civil rights and liberties?

Just curious, but how, on a daily basis, are you impacted?

 

[Not George Lucas]

I find myself having to be careful with what I say or do a lot more than I used to.

Not only that, but it's the principal. I am greatly disturbed that so many people are just fine with all the steps the government has taken to limit civil liberties for the sake of national security. I'm always confronted with such questions. The Constitution gives us several guarantees, things that I can take for granted and live in comfort with. Now that they're cutting back on my Constitutional rights, I become worried that some of my more frequently used rights will be revoked. Sure I don't have anything incriminating on my hard drive. That's not the point. The point is that the Constitution guarantees me that the government cannot access it. If I did have illegal crap on my computer, I can no longer rest assured that I am safe from their prying eyes.

 

[melon]

Those who would give up freedom for security is deserving of neither.

Melon

 

[boywonder]

I find myself having to be careful with what I say or do a lot more than I used to.

Not only that, but it's the principal. I am greatly disturbed that so many people are just fine with all the steps the government has taken to limit civil liberties for the sake of national security. I'm always confronted with such questions. The Constitution gives us several guarantees, things that I can take for granted and live in comfort with. Now that they're cutting back on my Constitutional rights, I become worried that some of my more frequently used rights will be revoked. Sure I don't have anything incriminating on my hard drive. That's not the point. The point is that the Constitution guarantees me that the government cannot access it. If I did have illegal crap on my computer, I can no longer rest assured that I am safe from their prying eyes.

This is hogwash. What could you possibly be doing on your computer or elsewhere that could get you arrested? Do you routinely joke about bombing buildings or funding terrorists organizations? Do you actually fund them? Nothing short of that is going to get you in major trouble. Let me guess, you're some white liberal who's relishing his brand new, shiny persecution complex.

 

[Not George Lucas]

Boy Wonder - You're wrong, and I hate you.

I do joke about bombing buildings and funding terrorist organizations. I do all kinds of things that are socially unacceptable. Furthermore, it is (or was) my right to do such things. Sadly, that is no longer the case. Now I live in a society where I have to watch what I say and put a disclaimer on everything I do. That is not America. That's not what the Constitution is about. That is not freedom.

 

[deep]

...Let me guess, you're some white liberal who's relishing his brand new, shiny persecution complex.

boy,

Why the mention of race and labeling?

 

[boywonder]

boy,

Why the mention of race and labeling?

Because he fits a stereotype to a tee. I just wanted to make fun of a stereotype. The stereotype is that white liberals don't actually have anything that they can feel persecuted by and they want to fit into a constituency that talks about persecution of different groups within society a lot, so he grabs at thin air to find something by which he feels persecuted. You don't know REAL persecution. You don't know real OPPRESSION. You're a wannabe. Furthermore, I'm not a big fan of anyone who makes jokes about terrorism or bombing buildings. Isn't modern day liberalism supposed to be about caring and empathy for your fellow man? Don't you realize people are starving and dying on a daily basis? Thousands have died in the last year due to terrorist acts and you joke about it? Where's your heart?

 

[deep]

I hear your argument.
I don't buy it.
I have to go out, I will try and get back to this in 4-5 hours.

 

[boywonder]

Let me add something. There are events throughout human history like slavery and the holocaust, which everyone just agrees not to joke about. Maybe if someone searched long and hard, they could find something funny about these events but it's just something you DON'T do. The events of 9-11 and terrorist incidents like it should be added to that list. You don't see a lot of people complaining that they can't make holocaust jokes or joke about throwing people in ovens. These events have horrified a nation and it's just sick to use them for cheap laughs. Perhaps doing so makes you popular among some demented group of sardonic gen-Xers, but it just makes you a sick freak to me and most of America. The freedom to abuse pain for personal amusement was not what our founding fathers stood up for.

 

[melon]

Let me add something. There are events throughout human history like slavery and the holocaust, which everyone just agrees not to joke about. Maybe if someone searched long and hard, they could find something funny about these events but it's just something you DON'T do. The events of 9-11 and terrorist incidents like it should be added to that list. You don't see a lot of people complaining that they can't make holocaust jokes or joke about throwing people in ovens. These events have horrified a nation and it's just sick to use them for cheap laughs. Perhaps doing so makes you popular among some demented group of sardonic gen-Xers, but it just makes you a sick freak to me and most of America. The freedom to abuse pain for personal amusement was not what our founding fathers stood up for.

But this is what makes freedom of speech ever the more important. Back in the 1800s, slavery was more than socially acceptable to "most of America" and if these then "sick freaks" didn't have their right to challenge the status quo, then guess what? We'd still have slavery.

Read my signature sometime; our Founding Fathers weren't these elegant people themselves. In fact, allow me to quote one of the "sick freaks":

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." - Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782.

There is nothing I hate more when people start to evoke the "Founding Fathers." Spare us the mythic speech.

Melon

 

[diamond]

deep = an angry white male liberal


DB9

 

[boywonder]

But this is what makes freedom of speech ever the more important. Back in the 1800s, slavery was more than socially acceptable to "most of America" and if these then "sick freaks" didn't have their right to challenge the status quo, then guess what? We'd still have slavery.

Read my signature sometime; our Founding Fathers weren't these elegant people themselves. In fact, allow me to quote one of the "sick freaks"

Sorry, you must be VERY confused. The "sick freaks" were abolitionists and they were speaking AGAINST slavery. Not George Lucas would have been making fun of it. Get it? He's outside of the status quo, that doesn't mean that his "opinion" is a potentially constructive one. What is he going to change? Is he going to trivialize 9-11? Are we all going to dance around and celebrate death one day due to his brave comments? Oh please!

I'd don't care if you don't like my bringing up the founding fathers. You abuse the constitution and our history for your amusement. Spare us your stupidity.

 

[U2Bama]

Boy Wonder - You're wrong, and I hate you.

I do joke about bombing buildings and funding terrorist organizations. I do all kinds of things that are socially unacceptable. Furthermore, it is (or was) my right to do such things. Sadly, that is no longer the case. Now I live in a society where I have to watch what I say and put a disclaimer on everything I do. That is not America. That's not what the Constitution is about. That is not freedom.

I'm sorry, Not George Lucas, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled long ago that there are certain limitations on freedom of speech, and a common "litmus test" type measure is "yelling fire in acrowded theater," something that potentially poses a danger to people. I do not see where it is your enumerated right to joke about blowing up buildings, funding terrorist organizations, etc. It is kind of like if someone was murdered in your town and, as a funny joke, you said "I did it!" That would aim the investigation as you; would your seriously use free speech as your defense?

Oh, and I LOVE it when I see people use the word "HATE" in this forum, especially when directing it towards other interferencers! That is so classy and funny!

~U2Alabama

 

[boywonder]

So, basically, we can't profile, we can't monitor the activity of suspects through their communications\internet use and we can't arrest them if they talk about blowing up buildings because these things are "unconstitutional". Even if they get caught in the act, you know the ACLU will step up to defend them. Wow! We're F*CKED!

 

[deep]

...

Oh, and I LOVE it when I see people use the word "HATE" in this forum, especially when directing it towards other interferencers! That is so classy and funny!

~U2Alabama

Bama,

I was thinking the same thing. Then I reread the thread. Boywonder went off track first, getting personal. This forum has been doing better without personal attacks.

 

[U2Bama]

Two wrongs don't make....etc.