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Old 11-11-2002, 02:20 PM   #16
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Re: Re: The Future American Police State

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Originally posted by pub crawler
I find it ironic that a Republican administration is (apparently indirectly) helping launch this so-called Total Information Awareness system, when said system seems to be the perfect precursor to "The Anti-Christ" scenario, which conservative (and mostly Repubican) Christians are so often warning us about. Self-fulfilling prophecy.
Hmm...but do you know what? Perhaps this is by design. Jerry Falwell, for instance, supports our involvement and support for Israel in the Middle East, because he believes that, before the second coming of Jesus, the Jews are to control the Holy Land. Upon that, according to Falwell, 2/3 of the Jews are to die and the other 1/3 are to convert to Christianity.

Self-fulfilling prophesy? Extreme right Christianity would actively support such methods to bring upon the apocalypse.

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Old 11-11-2002, 02:27 PM   #17
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yes melon, and yes to the person you quoted.

it is incredibly ironic that they are the ones that are, by all appearances, setting us up for a perfect "end times scenario."

im not saying anyone has to believe it, but i do. and i find this all to be startling.

and disturbing.
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Old 11-11-2002, 02:31 PM   #18
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Originally posted by Zoomerang96
im not saying anyone has to believe it, but i do. and i find this all to be startling.

and disturbing.
In the end, for a successful anti-Christ, one has to deceive those who are on guard the most--conservatives. That is why, for years, it has been my belief that the "end times" would be started and executed by conservatives. Whether that will happen, I guess we'll have to continue watching.

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Old 11-11-2002, 03:22 PM   #19
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Re: Re: Re: The Future American Police State

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Originally posted by melon


Extreme right Christianity would actively support such methods to bring upon the apocalypse.

Melon

Hmmm, I wonder if I'm thinking along the same lines as you. Are you saying they'd support such methods to bring upon the apocalypse in order to expedite the advent of the "Rapture"/Second Coming, i.e. to expedite the opening of their gateway to Heaven? Or am I way off?
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Old 11-11-2002, 03:57 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: Re: The Future American Police State

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Originally posted by pub crawler
Hmmm, I wonder if I'm thinking along the same lines as you. Are you saying they'd support such methods to bring upon the apocalypse in order to expedite the advent of the "Rapture"/Second Coming, i.e. to expedite the opening of their gateway to Heaven? Or am I way off?
Yup...we're on the same page.

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Old 11-11-2002, 04:20 PM   #21
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I think it is an extreme minority that believe they can influence or "trigger" end times.

Every Christian should have a basic knowledge of prophecy and end times as part of knowing God's Word. The mistake comes when we try to match names, number, times and events to the events described in Scripture - which directly warns us against making such predictions.

Government policy to trigger the Second Coming?
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Old 11-11-2002, 04:21 PM   #22
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Future American Police State

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Originally posted by melon


Yup...we're on the same page.

Melon

But wouldn't this be unholy? Unchristian? Just plain wrong???

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Old 11-11-2002, 05:36 PM   #23
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Government policy to trigger the Second Coming?
I've kept my George H.W. Bush quote in my signature for a reason. Remember the 1992 election when Bush, Sr. lost and Clinton was reelected? The immediate anger emanating from the extreme Christian right led me to believe that, perhaps, they were angry that their "agenda" was going to be thwarted. Hence, the immediate calls to "Impeach Clinton" in 1993. With Bush, Jr. in office, I feel that the extreme Christian right is taking off right where they left off, and a global war--hence, the "war on terrorism"--might be enough to finish their agenda to bring on the Rapture. This administration, perhaps, is uninterested in peace, just because of this.

It is my view that there are many prominent extremists in the Bush, Jr. administration, who--right or wrong--are wishing to advance the end of the world. And you are correct, nbcrusader, the Bible does warn against trying to make such predictions for the end of the world. Unfortunately, we may have to learn the hard way why separation of church and state has always been necessary.

Anyhow, these are some random thoughts. I'm likely to change my mind on this.

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Old 11-11-2002, 05:37 PM   #24
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The Future American Police State

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Originally posted by oliveu2cm
But wouldn't this be unholy? Unchristian? Just plain wrong???

I agree. The greatest evil of them all is disguised in holiness.

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Old 11-11-2002, 06:04 PM   #25
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by melon


Is it? I think the Republican Party has done an excellent job of stacking this "war on terrorism" to a point that no "real" American should question it. It should be noted that, with the creation of the Homeland Security department that the Republican Party filibustered the bill 12 times before the election--only to blame delays on the "unpatriotic" Democrats during the campaign. A brilliantly Machiavellian tactic.


I don't recall this tactic being used that often. In fact, I recall one candidate using it as he was campaigning during the midterm elections and the Democrats made a big stink over Republican's capitalizing on the war on terror. I don't see how you can argue that the administration has prevented people from criticizing it, when all the liberal pundits have done nothing but criticize starting from a month after 9-11.

Remember, Daschle kept pushing further and further to see whether he could pin the events of 9-11 on the current administration, but he failed because the evidence wasn't there and Clinton had as much (if not more) blame than Bush. Then, of course, you have every liberal pundit constantly attacking the administration including: Bill Maher, Ted Rall, Arianna Huffington, Michael Moore, etc etc. Then, you have every liberal site and forum on the web going crazy pinning all kinds of conspiracy theories on Bush. You have members of his own party doubting his war plans on Iraq. Clearly, I haven't heard anyone (of consequence) tell these pundits that they're not "real" Americans. I think it's a mostly imagined persecution on the part of liberals. The only time I can of where it was "unAmerican" to question the President, was just a few months after the attack when the country was trying to unite. Seems like a ton of dissent to me. Machiavelli would have been ashamed. "Machiavelian"? Practicing those alternatives to N*zism already?

Also, I wouldn't mock the process of filibustering, because it seems likely that Democrats are going to have to revert to it as a recourse in the Congress. That might come back to bite you in the ass.


Of course, "1984" was a scathing critique of Soviet communism, but I would also argue that the "choice" in capitalism is little more than an illusion. We used to chuckle at the fact that the government owned all the property in communism; but, in America, if you don't pay your property "taxes," the government can come in and take it all away. In effect, we are renting our property from our government...so much for "ownership."


You also have to pay taxes on fast food and other purchases. Are we not the owners of that? I hope we are because it's going to be hard to vomit up that BLT I ate in the early 90's if the tax man cometh. We pay taxes for marriage too. That means that the government can regulate who gets married! We pay taxes on our income and not paying those taxes can lead to jail time! The government can literally put you in jail for not paying them money. Seriously, it seems that if you're a liberal (or have some liberal ideas), then you shouldn't be attacking property tax (or any tax), because taxes are going to pay for social programs and the government isn't exactly in a budget surplus period. This is NOT the choice that we're supposed to find in capitalism. It isn't the choice to take advantage of this country's resources and not pay for any of it. It's the choice of religion, political affialiation\idealogy, etc etc.

The "dirty" fact of the Orwellian nightmare is that its success is dependent on the ignorance of the populace--a reinvention of history ("our Founding Fathers were Christians") and semantical games (Department of "Homeland Security"). Who controls the past controls the future: who controls the present controls the past. And it is no secret that the Roman "Republic" mutated into an autocratic "Empire."

And do not think it impossible to monitor all electronic communications simultaneously and globally...

Melon


That's not the "dirty" fact of an Orwellian nightmare. It's the most obvious fact. Remember the book? They had ministries to take care of that. I believe it was called the ministry of truth or something to that effect. A "dirty" little secret is something that ISN'T obvious on first inspection. Still, I don't believe that the government can effectively monitor the many terabytes of information passed per second around the global web.

1 character = 1 byte
Terabyte= 1,099,511,627,776 bytes

If you consider all the different encryption schemes, operating systems, proxy servers, etc etc, it doesn't add up. That's just internet traffic! Not considering telephone, snail mail, etc.
It's unlikely that the government will be able to convict someone based on tracing them across the internet if they (the suspects) can make a viable arguement that someone else could have been using their computer. Most intelligent people use anonymous proxy servers to do their "bad deeds" on the internet anyways.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder
I don't recall this tactic being used that often.
I guess if we aren't glued to C-SPAN, we'll never see it.

[QUOTE][B]Clearly, I haven't heard anyone (of consequence) tell these pundits that they're not "real" Americans. I think it's a mostly imagined persecution on the part of liberals. The only time I can of where it was "unAmerican" to question the President, was just a few months after the attack when the country was trying to unite. Seems like a ton of dissent to me. Machiavelli would have been ashamed. "Machiavelian"? Practicing those alternatives to N*zism already?

Quote:
Also, I wouldn't mock the process of filibustering, because it seems likely that Democrats are going to have to revert to it as a recourse in the Congress.
Pay attention. I wasn't mocking it. It only seems odd that a party would filibuster its own idea, and then blame it on the other side. Politics, anyone?

Quote:
You also have to pay taxes on fast food and other purchases. Are we not the owners of that?
I think this is a flat out silly comparison. You pay taxes on food *once* and its yours. You pay property taxes *every* year. They never end, and, as such, you never own your property.

Quote:
We pay taxes for marriage too. That means that the government can regulate who gets married! We pay taxes on our income and not paying those taxes can lead to jail time! The government can literally put you in jail for not paying them money. Seriously, it seems that if you're a liberal (or have some liberal ideas), then you shouldn't be attacking property tax (or any tax), because taxes are going to pay for social programs and the government isn't exactly in a budget surplus period.
First off, "boywonder," I'm not some archetypical liberal. I'm against property taxes, but am for graduated income taxes. I am for modifying sales taxes, so that they are required to be included in the sticker price of the item, rather than added after when at the cash register. I'm for modifying capital gains taxes, so that those who own their property non-speculatively (in other words, you aren't in it for the short-term "capital gains"), aren't taxed it. I think that schools should be funded at the state level, rather than the local level, with all public schools getting equal funding. No more "rich" and "poor" school districts.

In fact, my beef with the Republican Party is that they are fiscally irresponsible, slashing taxes for the top 1% with one hand and spending us into oblivion with the newest military toys in the other. If I had the chance to be in the presidency, I would reduce spending, pay off the national debt, and then cut taxes immensely.

We have too much of a bureaucracy, and we're bleeding at the seams. I think we should be upset that nearly 15% of our national budget every year goes to national debt payments...and that should increase, due to the Bush Administration's fiscal irresponsibility with the last tax cut.

But I digress...

Quote:
This is NOT the choice that we're supposed to find in capitalism. It isn't the choice to take advantage of this country's resources and not pay for any of it. It's the choice of religion, political affialiation\idealogy, etc etc.
Yes..."choice." And how funny how all the "choices" cost the same. How all cars have similar frames and guts to them. How all television shows follow the same formula. How the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are fairly similar in practice, when you cut out all the campaign rhetoric. Yes..."choice."

Quote:
That's not the "dirty" fact of an Orwellian nightmare. It's the most obvious fact.
True enough, but this is a semantical argument on your part.

Quote:
1 character = 1 byte
Terabyte= 1,099,511,627,776 bytes

If you consider all the different encryption schemes, operating systems, proxy servers, etc etc, it doesn't add up. That's just internet traffic! Not considering telephone, snail mail, etc.
It's unlikely that the government will be able to convict someone based on tracing them across the internet if they (the suspects) can make a viable arguement that someone else could have been using their computer. Most intelligent people use anonymous proxy servers to do their "bad deeds" on the internet anyways.
Ha! If you go by PC standards, then, yes, it would be difficult to process all those terabytes. However, top of the line supercomputers can process this nearly effortlessly. Now link hundreds of these together.

Proxy servers are useless if all of them are being monitored. A proxy server still has to hook up to the internet backbone--just as all internet traffic does. Telephony is also easy to monitor with the right equipment at the central office. The sheer reality is that, due to the fact that all electromagnetic waves travel at or near the speed of light, you could have all of your traffic routed to a monitoring site, then en route to you, without you ever noticing.

Snail mail is different, because it is not an electronic mode of communication.

Melon
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96
next thing you know, everyone will be expected to have a computer chip inserted into their bodies for the sake of national security, and those that would be opposed to it will be viewed as "terrorists."

i too love what is happening in the name of national security.
I think this is a very definite possibility, and that kind of scenario (for me, anyways) gets too close to the prophesy of the "mark of the beast" - and for that reason I would never stand to have a chip implanted in me. And I could very much could see the terrorist accusation being thrown at people who refuse to take part - very scary, but I bet it's coming.


Also, I don't see how it is possible for us to "induce" the Rapture/2nd Coming - God will use people when the time is right, and this could be coming up on the right time, but it is all under His control, our wishing and pushing is not going to make it happen any sooner.
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Old 11-11-2002, 06:58 PM   #28
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*runs off to write screenplay* heheh..

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Government policy to trigger the Second Coming?

Sure, why not?
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Old 11-11-2002, 07:38 PM   #29
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I guess if we aren't glued to C-SPAN, we'll never see it.

You'll never see it because it's imagined. It's a common thing for a group to exagerate persecution for political gain. Jesse would be proud.

Pay attention. I wasn't mocking it. It only seems odd that a party would filibuster its own idea, and then blame it on the other side. Politics, anyone?

I don't believe the Republicans were filibustering their own bill. They didn't like the version the Democrats wanted. Politics, anyone? Are you kidding me? Yeah, liberals are never guilty of politics. Psst.

I think this is a flat out silly comparison. You pay taxes on food *once* and its yours. You pay property taxes *every* year. They never end, and, as such, you never own your property.

First off, "boywonder," I'm not some archetypical liberal. I'm against property taxes, but am for graduated income taxes. I am for modifying sales taxes, so that they are required to be included in the sticker price of the item, rather than added after when at the cash register. I'm for modifying capital gains taxes, so that those who own their property non-speculatively (in other words, you aren't in it for the short-term "capital gains"), aren't taxed it. I think that schools should be funded at the state level, rather than the local level, with all public schools getting equal funding. No more "rich" and "poor" school districts.


Granted that taxes are paid up front on food, but your reasoning that the government has too much power because of property taxes is silly considering you could also make the same arguement for marriage and income (arguements you conveniently ignored). If I made a fortune from an invention and the government took half of my profits, then why not criticize the government for being too powerful there? Because the mean inventor was hording all his profits and not giving it away to the poor like he should have?

In fact, my beef with the Republican Party is that they are fiscally irresponsible, slashing taxes for the top 1% with one hand and spending us into oblivion with the newest military toys in the other. If I had the chance to be in the presidency, I would reduce spending, pay off the national debt, and then cut taxes immensely.

The top 1% of income earners already pay a record-high 35% of federal taxes, according to the Joint Economic Committee. And the top 25%–which means those making more than $50,607 per year–pay 83% of all taxes. Thus, any cut, no matter how small, must of necessity benefit those who pay most of the nation’s bills. Our government is not Robin Hood. Our government is not Robin Hood. Say it with me now.....

Charging that the Republicans are responsible for too much government spending is just ridiculous. We didn't have a surplus in the 90's because Clinton was a great fiscal manager. Liberals love to spend government $$$ on social programs and these programs are ripe with bureaucracy. Let's not deny it.

Yes..."choice." And how funny how all the "choices" cost the same. How all cars have similar frames and guts to them. How all television shows follow the same formula. How the Democratic Party and the Republican Party are fairly similar in practice, when you cut out all the campaign rhetoric. Yes..."choice."

Television shows don't follow the same formula. Some sitcoms perhaps, but that's an oversimplification. Cars look similar so we are actually not choosing? Please. A pinto is not a Lamborghini. I don't think Republicans and Democrats are the same. Perhaps you weren't paying attention to the issues. Do you really think Gore would be doing the same thing Bush is now? Please, any Democrats who believe this, please raise your hands. Would we have a tax cut, a war with Iraq, etc etc? No way.

True enough, but this is a semantical argument on your part.

Not a semantical arguement on MY part. This is common sense to anyone who read the book and knows what a "dirty" little secret is.

Ha! If you go by PC standards, then, yes, it would be difficult to process all those terabytes. However, top of the line supercomputers can process this nearly effortlessly. Now link hundreds of these together.

Any proof of this? You didn't address the issue of encryption methods, etc.

Proxy servers are useless if all of them are being monitored. A proxy server still has to hook up to the internet backbone--just as all internet traffic does.

An anonymous proxy server is just that...anonymous. The person who runs the proxy server retains (or chooses not to retain) the logs of what IP addresses were receiving what packets. Most proxy servers are used solely for the purpose of illegal distribution of files, so I don't suspect these are the type of people who want to help out the government in any way they can.

Telephony is also easy to monitor with the right equipment at the central office. The sheer reality is that, due to the fact that all electromagnetic waves travel at or near the speed of light, you could have all of your traffic routed to a monitoring site, then en route to you, without you ever noticing.

Care to explain the science behind how electromagnetic waves of varying frequencies can be "rerouted" to a central location? Trillions of gamma rays, microwaves, x-rays, radio waves, etc are going to be sent to a central location where they can all be decoded and processed? What a logistical nightmare.
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Old 11-11-2002, 07:44 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by boywonder


An anonymous proxy server is just that...anonymous. The person who runs the proxy server retains (or chooses not to retain) the logs of what IP addresses were receiving what packets.


Hence, they are not anonymous.
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