The forgotton ones in Guantanamo without rights - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-13-2003, 10:05 AM   #31
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,640
Local Time: 08:40 PM
Quote:
Most of the individuals in Guantanamo Bay have never experienced the Standard of Living that they currently have.
That's a joke right?



Quote:
Another thing about this and the international treaty thing is, when those things were made, there was a certain amount of honor even among the worst militaries. But with these people we deal with a new breed with a totally diferent mindset and set of values than any dealt with before, so they must be dealt with in a different way. Someone must feel strongly they are a danger to the US public or they wouldn't be there. I'm sorry but I care more about thousands of innocent lives being possibly lost to terrorist attacks than the feelings of these few who would love to carry out such acts. We are dealing with very dangerous people here. Any time someone is ready to die to kill Americans, and you can't even threaten him with his life to behave, that's scary as hell to me.
And this his what to do with getting these individuals tried?! If "someone felt strongly" enough to detain them, you would think they would have information about them that could get them tried. Or maybe they don't and that's why they are being detained for so long without trial.
__________________

__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-13-2003, 07:55 PM   #32
War Child
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sydney, Australia
Posts: 940
Local Time: 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Most of the individuals in Guantanamo Bay have never experienced the Standard of Living that they currently have. Many of these people come from area's where three hot meals a day, a warm bed, a Vollyball court, and a spectacular view of the ocean do not exist.
WTF?!?
__________________

__________________
TylerDurden is offline  
Old 10-13-2003, 09:37 PM   #33
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 02:40 AM
TylerDurden and BonoVoxSupastar,

Its no joke. Do you have any idea what the standard of living is like in rural Afghanistan?

The fact is that many of these individuals at Guantanamo Bay have never even seen a doctor or a dentist. Most of them come from area's of the world so poor, and unstable that are not even ranked by the Human Development Report.

The fact is that on average, the individuals in Guantanamo Bay recieve better quality food and more of it, and get either better medical care or have seen a doctor for the first time even. Their not out in the cold Mountains of Afghanistan avoiding frost bite and other disease, and hoping to get their first meal in days.

Oh, and it is a fact from reporters who have been inside Camp X-Ray that a section does have a vollyball court and a tremondous view of the ocean. That was not a joke either.

While there are severe restrictions on communication with the outside world, besides that, these guys get treated better than the average American citizen in prison.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 02:58 AM   #34
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 01:40 PM
STING2 I don't mean to speak on anyone's behalf, but I think their point is if anything it merely shows the huge difference in standard of living in America and Afghanistan. The fact that so many are horrified that these people are being kept in such basic and substandard conditions as far as we are concerned plus no sight of a trial in the near future still doesn't make this comparitive improvement any better. Who's standards are we going to go by? If it is America's then they are being treated sub humanly. Yet it is fine for America to use the perceived threat as the basis for their incarceration. If we go by theirs, then why dont we 'just let them go' as their choice would have it.
It cant be both ways. This is being done for America, so America needs to follow this all the way through and treat this how it would any other situation of this nature.

They shouldn't be let go and yes their basic requirements are being met with food and shelter. But whoopee really. Its not Club Med and no one is saying it should be. These people need a trial.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 08:28 AM   #35
Acrobat
 
Blacksword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 389
Local Time: 02:40 AM
I just find it amusing that the US used to bitch all the time about these sorts of actions occuring inthe USSR.

The US is skirting around it's own laws and internatational law. That is a fact. No one knows what eveidence there is against any of these 600+ individuals, that is also a fact. Is anyone so naive as to think that every single one of these people is guilty? 2 years, no trial and no hope for trial as they will not be tried until the war on terror is over. This sounds more like the actions of a facist state than a representative democracy. The American position has always been that "we hold the high ground, we value life and liberty more than the barbarians". As long as it is that of your own citizens maybe. The line that this is war is bullshit. There's a Geneva convention. And just because one side breaks it doesn't mean the other side should (certain attrocities against allied prisoners we committed by the Nazis in WW2, yet German soldiers were still given Geneva rights as far I can recall) . If the American State want to take the high ground line it has to follow its own ethical standards if it doesn't it should shut it's mouth and admit that when it comes down to it there is no difference between the US State and any militaristic state in the history of the world... aka human life is expendible against the goals of the state.
__________________
Blacksword is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 11:07 AM   #36
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,640
Local Time: 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
TylerDurden and BonoVoxSupastar,

Its no joke. Do you have any idea what the standard of living is like in rural Afghanistan?

The fact is that many of these individuals at Guantanamo Bay have never even seen a doctor or a dentist. Most of them come from area's of the world so poor, and unstable that are not even ranked by the Human Development Report.

The fact is that on average, the individuals in Guantanamo Bay recieve better quality food and more of it, and get either better medical care or have seen a doctor for the first time even. Their not out in the cold Mountains of Afghanistan avoiding frost bite and other disease, and hoping to get their first meal in days.

Oh, and it is a fact from reporters who have been inside Camp X-Ray that a section does have a vollyball court and a tremondous view of the ocean. That was not a joke either.

While there are severe restrictions on communication with the outside world, besides that, these guys get treated better than the average American citizen in prison.
So they get food and a doctor, big fucking deal. By this logic let's lock up the homeless, let's lock up Africa, let's lock up everyone else that may benefit from this. Taking someone's right to communication away and them not knowing how long they'll live or ever see their family again and them knowing they are completely innocent does not give one a better life.

Oh and the "average American citizen in prison" know they are getting tried before a jury.

Oh and let me know when you run across those pictures of the actual detainees using the volleyball courts and them breathing in the ocean air as they're looking at the great view they have.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-14-2003, 01:27 PM   #37
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Rono's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: the Netherlands
Posts: 6,163
Local Time: 03:40 AM
O yeah, i did see a tv program about Guanatamo last week also,..i did see a volleyball court also, i did see a new internetcaf also, but that was for the soldiers because they have a hard time being there,...
__________________
Rono is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 02:59 PM   #38
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 02:40 AM
The right to life of Americans comes before a terrorist right to a speedy trial. Their is no room for error on the part of the government when it comes to this. American lives are at stake.

The conditions that terrorist are living in are not substandard but are as good as or better than any prisoner in the USA. Communication is restricted in order to break up communication among terrorist worldwide. This has saved peoples lives.

Journalist that have been to the compounds have seen the facilities that the prisoners have. It was independent journalist that reported the Vollyball court and views of the ocean.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 03:24 PM   #39
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,640
Local Time: 08:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
The right to life of Americans comes before a terrorist right to a speedy trial. Their is no room for error on the part of the government when it comes to this. American lives are at stake.

The conditions that terrorist are living in are not substandard but are as good as or better than any prisoner in the USA. Communication is restricted in order to break up communication among terrorist worldwide. This has saved peoples lives.

Journalist that have been to the compounds have seen the facilities that the prisoners have. It was independent journalist that reported the Vollyball court and views of the ocean.
It's been up to two years for some of these people. Try them and convict them. How is delaying a trial saving American lives? Please explain this to me. If you are delaying trial in order to ensure conviction then maybe you didn't have enough to detain them in the first place. I'm sorry, but your excuse that National Security is at risk is bullshit.

Once again you still call these people terrorist. You have no proof, if so they'd be convicted by now. Maybe innocent until proven doesn't exist in this circumstance but it's good to know that your 100% sure. And you still haven't made any case on how they are as good or better than any prisoner in the US. But maybe if you keep repeating it.

Everything I've seen, the volleyball courts are for the soldiers and I'm pretty sure the detainees don't have ocean front view cells.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-14-2003, 04:40 PM   #40
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 02:40 AM
BonoVoxSupastar,

"It's been up to two years for some of these people. Try them and convict them. How is delaying a trial saving American lives? Please explain this to me. If you are delaying trial in order to ensure conviction then maybe you didn't have enough to detain them in the first place. I'm sorry, but your excuse that National Security is at risk is bullshit."

First, there is an ongoing operation to catch terrorist and prevent the deaths of thousands of innocent people as we speak. This US government has a responsibility to continue to interrogate and gain intelligence from those held in prison there before any trials are to begin. This is a war situation, this intelligence is vital to defeating terrorist attacks worldwide. The USA has foiled multiple terrorist attacks worldwide over the past two years because of intelligence they have gotten out of prisoners at the base.

"Once again you still call these people terrorist. You have no proof, if so they'd be convicted by now. Maybe innocent until proven doesn't exist in this circumstance but it's good to know that your 100% sure. And you still haven't made any case on how they are as good or better than any prisoner in the US. But maybe if you keep repeating it."

Most of these people caught in Afghanistan or other area's of South Asia engaged in operations against US forces just as German soldiers were caught during World War II and sent to US prison camps back in the United States or elsewhere. Those Germans remained in prison until the war was over.

In addition, I have a friend that was involved in the detention and capture of Al Quada personal in Afghanistan, several of whom were shipped to Camp X-Ray. My friend and other in the military have no desire to round up people who are not attacking them and send them to Camp X-Ray.

Even if the USA is not 100% sure in every case at Camp X-Ray, it is still to risky to let someone out if they could possibly commit the next terrorist act. A Speedy trial is not in the best interest of the safety and security of the American people. These Terrorist or prisoners have provided valuable information that has saved lives, and it would be wrong to stop are disrupt that process in any way.

There are several cases where individuals who were mistakes were released and sent home.

You have not made any case that the prisoners at Camp X-Ray are treated any worse than prisoners in US prisons. The communication part is restricted for obvious security reasons. The trials will proceed on a time table that is appropriate to US National Security interest.

"Everything I've seen, the volleyball courts are for the soldiers and I'm pretty sure the detainees don't have ocean front view cells."

Last week, I saw on NBC journalist that had been inside the Camp who saw the Volley Ball courts for prisoners and the view of the ocean and court yard. They were not allowed to take pictures, but made drawings of what they saw. The Journalist were very impressed with what they saw. The detainees do not have ocean front view cells, but they are allowed in an area to near the volley ball courts where there is clear and open view of the ocean that the journalist said is stunning.

Most Americans are concerned about preventing the next 9/11 and will not tolerate a naive and inefficient policy that would allow terrorist to win in the US Justice system and get released. 3,025 people were murdered in the space of 2 hours on 9/11. Preventing that or a worse event is a greater priority than the speed at which any trial takes place.
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 05:50 PM   #41
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,640
Local Time: 08:40 PM
Sting2,

If holding these individuals until this ongoing indefinate "War on Terrorism" is over without any mechanism of justice, in temporary cells of cinderblock and chainlink with exposure to the elements and lights remaining on at night, being interrogated while shackled, moved in blacked out goggles(hard to see that view), only a bucket for waste (in their cells), 15 minutes of recreation every other day, not even giving them the name and rights of a prisoner of war including the handful of minors under the age of 16 is considered humane and as good or better than other prisoners, and this makes you sleep better at night than go right ahead and believe that. I'm sure our nation is better for it.

But while you argue the point of National Security remember the fact that as we keep and treat more and more brothers and sons in this fashion we're creating more and more enemies. So is our National Security really that much better off not convicting and trying these individuals? I guess we'll never know.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:14 PM   #42
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,876
Local Time: 02:40 AM
BonoVoxSupastar,

The journalist who have actually been to the camp did not describe many of the conditions you cite. If anything, I would say that the environment their currently in is sometimes a little lax.

But if you feel that the conditions and certain rights of these terrorist or prisoners is more important than certain other national security issues such as preventing the next 9/11 and the American's publics right to safety and security, then I think we'll have to agree to disagree. For me, a few potentially wrongful detentions is nothing compared to the death of 3,025 people in 90 minutes.

"But while you argue the point of National Security remember the fact that as we keep and treat more and more brothers and sons in this fashion we're creating more and more enemies."

Where is your evidence for this? How many terrorist attacks have occured inside the USA since 9/11?
__________________
STING2 is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:28 PM   #43
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 09:40 PM
Sting

When is it appropriate in your mind to put them on trial? How much longer should they have to wait? In general I am supportive of your position, however, the war on terror, is potentially an never ending war. There is no clear enemy, where in a conventional war there is a begining a middle and an end. Where is the end to the war on terror? Is there an end? If not are we looking at detaining people forever?
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:53 PM   #44
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 06:40 PM
The situation has been made more difficult by the potentially faulty translations during the interrogations over the last year or so.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 10-14-2003, 07:54 PM   #45
Acrobat
 
Blacksword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 389
Local Time: 02:40 AM
Sting, the US Declaration of Independence is not limited in scope to Americans it extends to all humanity, who are said to have certain inalienable rights. Your govenment limits these rights to Americans only. Security is not an excuse to deny rights unless a crime can be proven. That requires a trial. This is not a case of conventional war as conservatives so love to point out. A captured soldier in uniform undeniably belongs to an enmey army, not trial is needed to prove this. A trial is needed to prove that someone is a terrorist. And even then German soldiers were not kept in the sorts of conditions that these people are kept in. There are clearly conflicting reports, and given how much of the US media bows down and for teh most part reports only what is largely beneficial to the government I am wary of trusting US sources, I would like to do some background on the journalist and actually read his/her article. Either way being holding prisoners without charge trial is one of the things the US has constantly criticised other governments for. The US has long believed that it's values are superior and should be adopted elsewhere, yet here we have a case where values which are plainly un-American are being adopted and applied.

This is not new. The US has always bathed in the luminence of representitive democracy, yet for security reasons in the Cold-War it crushed the democracies of sever nations like Guatemala, the Congo, and Chile when said governments steered away from freemarket capitalism towards varying forms of socialism. A logicalmove interms of security but one copletely at variance with the nation's values. But I suppose it was okay, the people affected weren't Americans.

If you wan't to prevent another 9/11 have your government cahnge it's policies to reflect the values written in it's charters, not hose of an expansionist stae preoccupied with it's own security to the exclusion of all others. It's is not your democracy and freedom the terroists hate it is the high handedness, autocracy, and general callousness of US foriegn policy they hate. These actions prove the terrorist's point and make wonderful propaganda. All your talk of democracy an d freedom means nothing in the face of Guantanamo.
__________________

__________________
Blacksword is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com