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Old 05-20-2006, 03:01 PM   #16
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Re: Re: Re: Re: the flight of the Iraqi middle class

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Originally posted by STING2


Saudi Arabia was not the root of Al Quada. Saudi Arabia has done a lot to combat Al Quada in its own country which is why Al Quada was not based there.

Saudi Arabia has had extensive ties to the rest of the world since the 1940s. The Relationship that the United States has with Saudi Arabia today was started by Franklin Roosevelt back in the 1940s, not the Bush family. Cheap Saudi Oil has helped to fuel the planets economic growth for the past half century.
Do you know what Wahhabi'ism is ?

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Pa...ia&ID=SP112306
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Old 05-20-2006, 03:06 PM   #17
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the flight of the Iraqi middle class

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Originally posted by toscano


Do you know what Wahhabi'ism is ?

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Pa...ia&ID=SP112306
Yes, I also know they are not all apart of Al Quada. Saudi Arabia has its extremist groups, but the Government of Saudi Arabia is against Al Quada and has done everything it can to destroy it because it considers Al Quada a threat to its existence.
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Old 05-20-2006, 03:38 PM   #18
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Originally posted by anitram
Saudi Arabia is one of the most, if not the most corrupt place on this planet and certainly one of the worst, if not the worst place for a woman to have the misfortune of being born in.

But cheap oil trumps humanitarianism and basic human dignity.
If you want to know just how awful it is to be a woman in Saudi Arabia, read Jean Sasson's "Princess Trilogy". It's a true story about a princess in Saudi Arabia who is fighting for rights for Saudi women.
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Old 05-20-2006, 04:57 PM   #19
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Re: Re: the flight of the Iraqi middle class

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Originally posted by STING2


Do you know what it was like to get out of Iraq from 1979 to 2003? Do you realize the hell the people went through during that time period? People have the opportunity to do things now that they did not prior to Saddam. Lots of people in Eastern Europe picked up their things and left after the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. That wasn't a bad thing, but a natural reaction to new opportunities. Its taken years for Bosnia to get to the point where it is today, and it will take years for Iraq to arrive at a point where there is no significant immigration out of the country. Its not a sign of failure, but what naturally happens in such situations.


do you have percentages on the middle class that left Eastern Europe post-1989? was Eastern Europe a cauldron of violence in 1989? were there tremendous economic incentives for people to return to their countries in 1989? were the cities destroyed and the lives of the average Eastern European plagued by sectarian violence in 1989?

the salient question is whether or not the one-quarter of the middle class has left. that will remain to be seen, but it is farily clear that they are making preparations. when those who would have the most to gain from a stable, democratic Iraq don't have the faith to "stay the course,"what kind of a future can we hope to have?

i think verte makes vaild points.
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Old 05-20-2006, 05:38 PM   #20
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Re: Re: Re: the flight of the Iraqi middle class

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Originally posted by Irvine511




do you have percentages on the middle class that left Eastern Europe post-1989? was Eastern Europe a cauldron of violence in 1989? were there tremendous economic incentives for people to return to their countries in 1989? were the cities destroyed and the lives of the average Eastern European plagued by sectarian violence in 1989?

the salient question is whether or not the one-quarter of the middle class has left. that will remain to be seen, but it is farily clear that they are making preparations. when those who would have the most to gain from a stable, democratic Iraq don't have the faith to "stay the course,"what kind of a future can we hope to have?

i think verte makes vaild points.
I don't have the percentages off hand, but are you assuming that the fall of the Berlin Wall did not lead to large numbers of people leaving Eastern Europe in the early 1990s? Have you ever heard of Yugoslavia? If you want a clear definition of what a CIVIL WAR is and what Sectarian Violence is really like, look no further than Yugoslavia in the early 1990s!

The flow of people out of these area's in Europe was clear, but it did not lead to the end of these countries, nor did it mean the end of several of the new countries that have formed out of the old Yugoslavia. Despite all the Sectarian differences in Bosnia and the deaths of nearly 10% of the entire population in a 4 year period, that country and its three ethnic groups are moving foward. Bosnia has come a long way and currently enjoys a standard of living better than China or Thailand and is almost to the level of Brazil. Very impressive considering the devestation and sectarianism that is there.

In addition, the aid that the United States pumps into Iraq currently dwarfs any sort of wealth that the Iraqi middle class has, after 25 years of rule under Saddam. The new Iraq is not going to prosper because of a tiny middle class that had it good under Saddam. It will prosper because of the massive new opportunities that all Iraqi's will now have to provide for themselves now that Saddam and his wars are gone.

Saddam spent 25 years running the country into the ground, its going to take many years to fix and develop the country.
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