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Old 02-13-2003, 12:38 PM   #1
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Normal The Fear: Why This Little Liberal Is Becoming a Hawk

I've been having nightmares lately--bombs in my house, members of my family being abducted by mysterious foreign governments, etc. I've had recurring nightmares in the past, so this isn't exactly news to me. Still, I'm sure that this latest round of dreams stems from some of the fear I have of a new terrorist attack coming--and I feel sure that one is, in fact, coming.

Here's my question: after reading through some of Powell's report from last week, I'm starting to think that at least disarming Saddam Hussein thoroughly is in fact a not-bad idea, and if that means war, well, so be it. I'm starting to think that this is maybe not all about oil, and even if it is...well, the guy is dangerous. I don't know how much of this is gut reaction on my part and if I'm using good judgment. Maybe I'm no better than those paranoid, ultra-right-wing-ers who have in fact been stockpiling semiautomatics and plastic sheeting and canned goods for *years* now. Or is there something to what I'm feeling?

Righters and lefters unite to tell me if I'm crazy or not. I'm a pretty peaceful person and tend against war. But I can feel my pacifism ebbing away from me and am no longer convinced that such a war would be unjust. Is anyone else undergoing similar transformations? Am I being brainwashed by the media...or is it something else, a fear that dare not speak its name (if you will)?
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Old 02-13-2003, 12:49 PM   #2
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i'm going through the same thing. i'm starting to see the idea of war differently and this scares me. although i really do think the media has a lot to do with my fears. i've been watching the news way too much and i know that's definitely affecting me. i've been having the nightmares too - constantly. i've never considered myself a pacifist before - i've been more in favor in just war - although my definition of that used to be a lot more stringent than it is now. i really do think that there is a legitimate fear that something is coming. i'm wondering if we do have a right to use force to prevent attacks from happening. i really have no idea what i'm rambling about. my ideology seems to waver from one day to another. i do know, that since 9/11, any sort of childlike idealism that i might have had regarding war and peace is certainly shattered. i guess i'm still in the process of deciding where i really stand on these issues.
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Old 02-13-2003, 12:50 PM   #3
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i have the same fear pax. i don't really fear for my life out here in crazy south dakota, but to think i may never talk to/see my friends/family because of this....or the thought of reliving another 9/11 scares the hell out of me. i still get teary eyed when i see pictures of the towers or when i think about the way things went down that day.

but just because you want to disarm saddam does NOT mean you are pro-war. it means that you don't trust saddam with the weapons he is creating.

but only disarming saddam isn't going to fix everything...al-quaeda and saddam heussein are not the same. there are 2 separate threats right now...and hopefully we will intercept anything that is planned on us.

girl, i wish i could say there's nothing to fear, but i'm scared too. but we gotta be strong and go on our daily routine, travel by air, take the subway, because we can't let them paralyze us.
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Old 02-13-2003, 01:04 PM   #4
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Not really. I've accepted that this war is an inevitability, and that's the way it is. I blame the news for rampant fearmongering, which is exactly why I avoid American media like the plague.
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Old 02-13-2003, 03:00 PM   #5
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Re: The Fear: Why This Little Liberal Is Becoming a Hawk

Paxetora, thanks so much for the link. I'd love all Angels to put a link up in their sigs. Could you possibly email me?

cduckwo1@gmu.edu

And yes, I hear ya. I don't think fear should make our decisions, though. Thoughtful post!

SD
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Old 02-13-2003, 03:33 PM   #6
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Hi, I didn't know where to post this article, but it does somewhat relate to this thread, so I thought why not put it here?
Some interesting observations:

The Four Horsemen Are Saddling Up
By Charles Krauthammer in Washington

"The terror alert in the United States jumps to 9/11 levels.

Heathrow Airport is ringed by tanks. Duct tape and plastic sheeting disappear from Washington store shelves. Osama resurfaces. North Korea reopens it plutonium-processing plant and threatens pre-emptive attack. The Second Gulf war is about to begin

This is not the Apocalypse. But it is excellent preparation for it...."

And now I skip a few paragraphs until....

"The rogue states prospered, arming and girding themselves for big wars. Which are now upon us. On September 11, the cozy illusions and stupid pretensions died. We now recognize the central problem of the 21st Century: the conjunction of terrorism, rogue states and weapons of mass destruction.

True, weapons of mass destruction are not new. What is new is that the knowledge required to make them is no longer esoteric. Anyone with a reasonable education in modern physics, chemistry or biology can brew them. Doomsday has been democratized.

We are in a race against time. Once such hostile states establish arsenals, we become self-deterred and they become invulnerable. North Korea may already have crossed that threshold.

There is a real question whether we can win the race. Year One of the new era, 2002, passed rather peaceably. Year Two will not: 2003 could be as cataclysmic as 1914 or 1939.

What is the probability that a civilization will not destroy itself once its very intelligence grants it the means of self-destruction?

This planet has been around for four billon years, intelligent life for perhaps 200,000, weapons of mass destruction for fewer than 100. A hundred - in the eye of the universe less than a blink. And yet we find ourselves on the brink. What are the odds that our species will manage to contain this awful knowledge without self-destruction - not for a billion years or a million or even a thousand, but just through the lifetime of our children.

Those are the stakes today. Before our eyes, in a flash, politics has gone cosmic.

The question before us is very large and very simple: Can - and will - the civilized part of humanity disarm the barbarians who would use the ultimate knowledge for the ultimate destruction?

Within months, we will have a good idea whether the answer is yes or no."

On another page there is a photo of Osama Bin Laden gazing out into his field of reality. He says in the most Apocalyptic terms..."And surely this year I will lead my steed and hurl it and my soul at one of the targets. O my Lord, if my demise has come, then let it not be upon a bier draped with green mantles.

But let my grave be an eagle's belly, its resting place in the sky's atmosphere perched among eagles. And I become a Martyr dwelling amongst a band attached in a level mountain pass of the Earth."

The verse indicates a readiness to die in combat against American forces - hence the reference to an eagle's belly.

Adi Da Samraj is a fully Enlightened Spiritual Master. His view of what is happening on the planet is not a human observation, but a Divine One. I end with His Wisdom on the state of The Earth and mankind.

The present late-time or dark epoch is just such a time of technological sophistication, in which the egoic model of humanity and human society is the universal basis of mind. Gross materialism in science and politics gives human beings no option in the mind except that of the trapped and threatened animal. Therefore, a fiery mood is abroad-full of gross desire, frustration, fear, despair, and aggressive reactivity. The egoic motive of self-preservation is approaching its most destructive mood-the mood that appears in the moment of ultimate entrapment. In that mood, there is no longer any will to preserve "self" or world or any others. There is simply explosive fire-based on the deep motives of egoic self-preservation, but reduced to action that is most primitive and entirely destructive of both "self" and "not-self". In the collective mind of humanity in the present and growing extremes of entrapment, the explosion of great nuclear bombs merely represents the archetype of anger itself. And it is for this reason that the possibility of a nuclear holocaust, in the extreme moment of the now rising political confrontations, is an irrational-and, therefore, entirely possible, if not inevitable-event."

Scary stuff! Let's hope it won't come true!
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Old 02-13-2003, 06:01 PM   #7
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Thanks, that helped.

My mom says to me this morning:

"You know, despite all the bullshit about duct tape and canned goods and whatever, I still think we can resolve this."

Nothing like motherly wisdom!

Lilly: I am going to IM you. I've not talked to you in a while.
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Old 02-13-2003, 06:29 PM   #8
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Re: The Fear: Why This Little Liberal Is Becoming a Hawk

Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora

Righters and lefters unite to tell me if I'm crazy or not. I'm a pretty peaceful person and tend against war. But I can feel my pacifism ebbing away from me and am no longer convinced that such a war would be unjust. Is anyone else undergoing similar transformations? Am I being brainwashed by the media...or is it something else, a fear that dare not speak its name (if you will)?
Pax,

You are a very kind soul. It is evident in your posts. I think we have all been traumatized in some way by 9/11.

I too have been having nightmares. I have been having dreams.

I am also feeling guilty because of my former military friends departure to do their jobs, while I sit at home. It feels awful knowing that someone else is sticking their neck out there on the line for me.

I still pray, and hope that this will not turn into a war. I still hope that maybe, just maybe, somehow things will turn towards a peaceful resolution. The fact is, between terrorism, Iraq, North Korea, and Iran, we have an increasing chance of war.

The United States media is not the best source of info. Read, read, read, all that you can, from all points of view.

This morning I had breakfast with two collegues that both started to cry because of their fears surrounding the war and Osama. I did not know what to say or do.

WE are all feeling it. I believe others are in the world too. Our decisions and actions have very big ripples around the world.

One thing though.....on a lighter note..... I want you all to know that if you suddenly start arguing for war, I will start argung for peace. I like being on the minority sides of arguments.


PEACE
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Old 02-13-2003, 11:51 PM   #9
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wink Re: Re: The Fear: Why This Little Liberal Is Becoming a Hawk

Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I want you all to know that if you suddenly start arguing for war, I will start argung for peace. I like being on the minority sides of arguments.
Starting to unravel some of my secrets of this place, eh?

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Old 02-13-2003, 11:53 PM   #10
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Re: Re: Re: The Fear: Why This Little Liberal Is Becoming a Hawk

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Originally posted by melon


Starting to unravel some of my secrets of this place, eh?

Melon
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Old 02-14-2003, 02:17 AM   #11
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I'm petrified. I have two sisters in New York City. I'll bet they have gas masks. They survived 9/11, of course. Will they survive another attack? I don't really think they'd hit little old Birmingham, but I'm afraid I'm going to have nightmares of losing loved ones.............
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Old 02-14-2003, 03:23 AM   #12
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the media is even worse than the government it would seem. just read what anitram had to say if you wanna know how i feel.

i guess pacifism only works when you dont feel threatened.
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Old 02-14-2003, 04:31 AM   #13
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It seems a lot of people around here are doing some about turns on things I guess we all had pretty solid stances on in the past. Dreadsox, sorry to be personal, but you seem to be kinda guilty almost that you aren't signing up with all your old colleagues. Isn't what you are doing now just as important? These 10 year olds are going to be the next wave of thinkers for your country, and you have the opportunity to teach them! We all have duties in life, perhaps yours has changed focus to something a little more subtle yet something that is filled with endless potential. Some teacher out there in your country is currently teaching one of your future Presidents. It might be you!
And chalk me up as another non pacifist. If you're under threat, or attacked, you got my support in fighting back. I dont love war, but the way I see it, the guy you are fighting doesn't exactly invoke sympathy.
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Old 02-14-2003, 06:25 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
It seems a lot of people around here are doing some about turns on things I guess we all had pretty solid stances on in the past. Dreadsox, sorry to be personal, but you seem to be kinda guilty almost that you aren't signing up with all your old colleagues. Isn't what you are doing now just as important?
I agree with everything you said here. I have told myself that again and again. But, it has not changed my feelings inside. Watching my friends, other people's children, go off to do their part makes me feel like someone else is sacraficing for me and without me. It is hard to explain.


Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
These 10 year olds are going to be the next wave of thinkers for your country, and you have the opportunity to teach them! We all have duties in life, perhaps yours has changed focus to something a little more subtle yet something that is filled with endless potential. Some teacher out there in your country is currently teaching one of your future Presidents.
Thanks for your kind words. I had to read it three times to get through your "FACE" yelling at me!!!!!!
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Old 02-14-2003, 10:18 AM   #15
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It's weird, even though I know it's not true, with all the fear being generated by national media it seems like the mainstream media outlets are complicit with President Bush in making the coming bombing of Iraq happen. Again, I know it's not true but it's fascinating the way the media is playing into all this.
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