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Old 06-01-2005, 12:28 PM   #1
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the dutch vote on the EU constitution

ok, i know we have several dutch here, and i was wondering how they voted in the referendum, and why. if we could gather 5 votes together, we could then extrapolate it to a nation of... uhh.. 15 million

if the dutch reject it as well, the EU constitution will be pretty much dead. this will have very strong repercussions on the future of the union, the integration process may slow down politically and socially, and may become limited to economic integration. this was basicly what british wanted all along, but will it lead to a strong EU that can step up to the political challenges it most certainly will face? will it be strong enough to deal with powers such as the US and China? I think these are very serious issues, and they have not been addressed properly yet.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:35 PM   #2
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they rejected it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4601439.stm

Quote:
The poll indicates that at least 63% of the electorate voted "No", and that only 37% endorsed the treaty in the referendum on Wednesday.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:36 PM   #3
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http://www.sky.com/skynews/home

Exit polls show a decisive no vote apparently.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:37 PM   #4
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Dandy, you just beat me to it.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:40 PM   #5
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No offense my Turkish friend

but in both France and Netherlands
I am hearing reports that inclusion of Turkey in EU was one reason that some voted no.
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Old 06-01-2005, 12:58 PM   #6
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[i]But observers say voters are unhappy about higher prices since the euro and discontented with the centre-right government.

Many also feel threatened by what they see as a superstate that will interfere with liberal policies such as those on gay marriage and euthanasia.

Others disagree with the swift enlargement of the EU, and oppose the possible inclusion of Turkey. [/B]
well, that is one of the reasons. it seems to be a very good way of rallying the right wingers to the cause.

financeguy said it in the other thread about the french vote, in both countries, the 'no' block was 'a motley crew of leftists/trade unionists combined with some far-right voters'. in the french vote, 12% showed possible inclusion of turkey as the reason they voted no. i dont know the number for the dutch vote.

overall, i can say that the negotiations will be a very bumpy ride for turkey, merkel her CDU/CSU are on the rise, chirac cant really be trusted with anything.

however, what it comes down to is the voters, the people. turkey needs to do more to convince the european voters, not only the leaders. we certainly need help from the leaders themselves while doing this.

however, another important reason for the consecutive 'no's is that the EU is not able to fulfill one of its two main goals: peace and prosperity in europe. there is peace, but continental western european economies are not doing well, germany, france have very high unemployment rates (france was 10.2 i think, double the rate in britain) and those countries supply 55% of the EU funding by themselves. this disillusionment with EU is another reason for the staunch 'no' voters.

i was talking to a dutch friend of mine here the other day, and she said one thing that really scares her about this is the possibility of a european superstate, and what it might do against the very liberal dutch laws. they do not want interference with their liberal policies, which i can absolutely understand.

it seems to me that a united europe is not likely to appear anytime soon, and the integration will proceed in mostly economic grounds.
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Old 06-01-2005, 02:01 PM   #7
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I've read about French politicians complaining about including Turkey in the EU. It seems like alot of them are opposed. And I can understand why the Dutch are nervous about their gay marriage laws. If I were Dutch I'd want to keep that law myself.
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Old 06-01-2005, 06:41 PM   #8
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We are the country that says "Neee!"

Seriously though, looking at European History I think it would be wise to boost defence spending, I doubt that the US would stay around to keep the peace if Europe ever went back into it's old habits. Maybe not this decade, probably not in the next 50 years but at some point.
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Old 06-02-2005, 11:39 AM   #9
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I'm a loser.... I voted "ja"










Yes, that's yes...
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Old 06-02-2005, 12:36 PM   #10
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ehm,...i voted also yes.
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Old 06-02-2005, 01:27 PM   #11
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So did I!
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Old 06-02-2005, 03:40 PM   #12
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Gosh, you guys have got to be disappointed.
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Old 06-02-2005, 04:04 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
Gosh, you guys have got to be disappointed.
Yes, I went out on the balcony and shook my angry fist. You get used to it really; I always seem to end up with the minority anyway.
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Old 06-02-2005, 07:19 PM   #14
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Hm.

Regarding French politicians....

I'm going to go out on a limb here (REALLY out on a limb, since we have a Turkish poster here...All I Want, is that you?..and PLEASE don't flame me, I'm just making a neutral observation... ).

France not only has by far the highest ethnic Armenian population in Europe, but it is, to my knowledge, the only country in the West (and possibly the world, I really don't know) whose government has passed a resolution offically recognizing the Armenian Genocide...as such. Now, maybe the media have been lax in reporting it, but don't tell me that France's Armenian communities didn't firebomb their local reps on this issue. Especially since they just had the offical 90th anniversary remembrance activities in late April, with the Turksih gov't STILL not decisively addressing the issue by opening up and officially declassifying the early 20th century Ottoman archives for public scrutiny. (If whatever happened, for whatever reason, occurred under a different gov't, then why the stalling on declassiying the archives? Surely the present-day democratic Turkey has nothing to hide.And it would be the only way to prove Armenians were lying and settle the issue once and for all. IF the Armenians were lying, or if they really were collusion with Russia, proving that it was anational emergency and the Ottomans had to take decisive steps to save the country, then why not open the archives and tell the world this? the gov't should be eager to prove this and should be rushing to settle the issue once and for all. The stalling only would make on outside observer think they had something to hide. It' s the way Bush does things. )

Some of them may indeed want Turkey excluded....on grounds of "they don't deserve it, not when they've never apologized....for even Ottoman atrocities....the way the new, non-Nazi-government aplogozied for the Nazi legacy" etc. And from what I know of Armenian communities here in the U.S, politically speaking, you don't have to fall into one particular party to feel this way. A lot of Armenian Americans are conservsative..the ratio probably skews 55-45 here....but on any issue regarding Turkey, conservative or liberal, that's the ONE thing they can agree on. I know. So you can't say everyone was afar right winger who opposes Turkey....

Personally, I find this curious, that they stick up for Armenians (well..not a surprise, really, since the last independent king of medivial Armenia died in Paris in 13-something and is buried in a cathedral there) and yet they have a rep for anti-Semitism. The lingering legacy of the Dreyfus affiar and such. Not all French, of coure, but there's a sizable bunch of looney tunes. Sometimes. The Germans, irnoically, have Far more tolerance it seems in some things...with its high Turkish population.

OK..I may have offended about 6 different ethnic groups and hence, posters, with this....I have to say that is NOT my intention. And to our "Turkish friend"....I repeat, I was NOT trying to say anything negative aobut you. Or your country...I was just trying to step into the mind of a French politican that's all. I will shut up about 1915 of course. I knowit;s a touchy issue.for both sides. I realy hope and pray someday that it won't have to be an issue anymore. I'd love to have you for a "friend" after all...FORGIVE ME?? To tell you the truth, I wish to God I had a Turkish friend or acquaintance I could have aconstructive dialogue about this with....because my heart aches for you people as much as for us, sometimes. Talking..its the omly way out, the only way to healing. "We're one but we're not the same, we get to carry each other"...

Now, I confess to an American's ignorance about the forming EU. I have read so much about the EU (from a variety of sources; if you could live here and experience daily what passes for the MEDIA in this country you'd wonder how we ever could function....you'd also find that ignorance serves many politicans well....*COUGH*) and I confess to still being confused about some things.

1)I still don't understand how the possible non-ratification of the Constituion could affect the outcome. How could the integration of Europe still be on-track politically, but not economically? If Europe is unable to devise a political union, wouldn't this be mirrored by economic disarray? I have always thought that political power is bolstered--indeed, upheld..by economic hegomeny and strength. How can you have a cohesive polical entity without a cohesive economic one?

2) How will this affect pending membership of other countries, or the applications of new countries to join in the future? Can new countries be added economicaly without being added politcally? It seems unlikely to me. Many media outlets in the US are discussing a sort of future "Franco-German bloc", patterned after old alliances, which, ironically, would mirror the derisive "Old Europe" Bush scoffs at, with newer members loosely on the outside.

I find this supremely ironic, because Bush did everything he could to isolate these 2 countires politically, and against him, they wer eunfied. But in the matterof the EU< they disagree, aparently.

3)The Brits are now saying that their EU vote is going to be postponed indefinitely. Which I find ironic too, since they were the ones expected to vote now months ago, they were seen as the big problem, not France, which pioneered it. IN efect, Blair and Snow don't want to have the distinction of being the ones who killed the EU. Do you think Blair will really call the idea dead in June, at the conference, or do you think he may try to create a meida blitz to saway pulbic opinion and take a chance with holding another refrendum next year, it the polls prove more favorable, thus paving the way and providing a formula to "save" the charter by proving that the French and Dutch can do the same thing and sway their voters too, for a positive repeat vote?
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