The Dutch government to ban burqa? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-16-2006, 12:00 PM   #1
Blue Crack Addict
 
MissVelvetDress_75's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: basking in my post-concert glow still mesmerized by the orbit of his hips..Also Holding Bono Close as he requested.
Posts: 25,776
Local Time: 12:24 PM
The Dutch government to ban burqa?

[q] Dutch MPs to decide on burqa ban
By Mark Mardell
Europe editor, BBC News, Brussels

The Dutch government will announce over the next few weeks whether it will make it a crime to wear traditional Islamic dress which covers the face apart from the eyes.

The Dutch parliament has already voted in favour of a proposal to ban the burqa outside the home, and some in the government have thrown their weight behind it.

There are only about 50 women in all of the Netherlands who do cover up entirely - but soon they could be breaking the law.

Dutch MP Geert Wilders is the man who first suggested the idea of a ban.

"It's a medieval symbol, a symbol against women," he says.

"We don't want women to be ashamed to show who they are. Even if you have decided yourself to do that, you should not do it in Holland, because we want you to be integrated, assimilated into Dutch society. If people cannot see who you are, or see one inch of your body or your face, I believe this is not the way to integrate into our society."

'Identifiable'

I interviewed Mr Wilders inside parliament after several security checks. Two tough bodyguards stood close by throughout. This country, once the epitome of easy-going liberalism, is edgier, less tolerant these days.

Mr Wilders' name was included on a list of "infidels, who deserved to be slaughtered", which was found pinned to the body of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh.

Van Gogh was murdered two years ago for making the film about women and Islam called "Submission". It starts with a shot of a woman's face covered by a burqa. Slowly the camera shows that, from the neck downwards, she's naked but for a thin veil.

Mr Wilders has explicitly linked his wish for a burqa ban with terrorism.

"We have problems with a growing minority of Muslims who tend to have sympathy with the Islamo-fascistic concept of radical Islam," says Mr Wilders.

"That's also a reason why everybody should be identifiable when they walk on the street or go to a pub or go into a restaurant or whatsoever."

'Freedom of choice'

Famala Aslam is a Muslim lawyer who has represented women who have stopped wearing the burqa while training as child-care assistants. She would not cover her face herself, but does wear a traditional dress and headscarf from eastern Turkey.

She showed me how that can be adapted.

Banning or isolating a certain group of the population is just asking for problems
Famala Aslam, Muslim lawyer
"Other women are stricter; and they hide the face - you can only see the eyes," she says. "And other women choose to wear the niqab, and they veil the face totally."

I asked her what she would say to people who would say: "If you want to fit into the West, live here, wear a business suit; wear jeans - don't wear what you're wearing. Don't wear a niqab."

Ms Aslam says she believes that the freedom of choice and the freedom of religion is something that people need to fight for.

In the city of Maaseik, in Belgium - which lies a few hundred yards from the Dutch border - a ban on wearing the niqab is already in place. Mayor Jan Creemers said he brought it forward because old people were afraid and children cried when women started appearing in long black robes with their faces covered.

Belgium ban

Women can now be fined 150 euros (£102) if they are found to be wearing the niqab.

"There were six ladies who wore the niqab. I think two or three weeks after the council passed this law, five have dropped it," says Mr Creemers. "One lady is still wearing it but the last step in the procedure will be that she must go to jail."

The husband of the woman who defies the ban is being held in connection with the Madrid bombings. But the police here are not too happy with the ban. They say it has made relations with the Moroccan community worse and gives young people a reason to resent society.

Ms Aslam says if the ban becomes law in the Netherlands, some women will adopt the veil as a political statement.

"A lot of women are not fully feeling like Muslims," she says. "But because of the public opinion, they are feeling like: 'I have to be a Muslim'. And banning or isolating a certain group of the population is just asking for problems."

The Dutch government will soon decide whether to ban the burqa. Perhaps it will not become illegal in this marketplace or in the street. But they are likely to ban it in public places like stations, airports and cinemas - something many Muslims will regard as provocation in a Europe increasingly uncertain of its own identity.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...pe/4616664.stm

Published: 2006/01/16 13:02:15 GMT

[/q]
__________________

__________________
MissVelvetDress_75 is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 12:10 PM   #2
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:24 PM
You can be an impeccably pious Muslim without a burqa. This is a cultural tradition in certain countries justified by religion, not the other way around. I think it has a lot to do with protecting the face from sandstorms in Arabia (makes sense there but not a feature of the North West European climate last time I checked).

The Dutch are right to liberate those Muslim women in their country whose menfolk require such unnecessary and possibly repressive cultural practices.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 12:11 PM   #3
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 12:24 PM
Maybe they should just ban covering your entire face in public, period. Seems like a legit security measure, and wouldn't have the religious opression twist.
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 12:38 PM   #4
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 05:24 PM
I have seen Muslim women wearing veils driving their kids home from school, stopping at the drugstore to pick up some stuff on the way. I saw a women who only had her veil opened at her eyes so she could see--let's hope so since she was driving a car! Their reasoning is that they're saving their beauty for their husbands. It's definitely not my lifestyle, but it's theirs, and it doesn't bother me.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 12:42 PM   #5
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
Their reasoning is that they're saving their beauty for their husbands.
It is my understanding that the commands in the Koran that led to the burqa were not for the woman's benefit, or even the benefit of the marriage. It was to prevent men from being tempted when seeing the beautiful form of the women.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 01:00 PM   #6
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


It is my understanding that the commands in the Koran that led to the burqa were not for the woman's benefit, or even the benefit of the marriage. It was to prevent men from being tempted when seeing the beautiful form of the women.
That's correct. But I've read where some particular women also stated their preference to save their beauty for their husbands. In these cases it's not the Koran, it's personal choice. Sometimes these women actually choose the veil. One of them said "we wear it with pride".
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 08:03 PM   #7
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
Maybe they should just ban covering your entire face in public, period. Seems like a legit security measure, and wouldn't have the religious opression twist.
About the only worthy rationale I can think of.

I wonder if nuns in full traditional habit would pass Mr. Wilders' Fashion Assimilation test?
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 08:54 PM   #8
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
Maybe they should just ban covering your entire face in public, period. Seems like a legit security measure, and wouldn't have the religious opression twist.
There was a controversy over headcoverings in ID pix in Alabama. The Legislature proposed a law over them. The law would have applied to both headscarves and nuns' headdresses. One loudmouthed Catholic right-winger was insisting that they not change the law for "that Muslim woman". They changed the law and I didn't hear a peep from that loud mouth.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 09:21 PM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 01:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader

It was to prevent men from being tempted when seeing the beautiful form of the women.
Perhaps it would work better to blind the men.

Or castrate them.

Why is it always the women who have to do/wear the shitty stuff so the men "won't be tempted?"

Arrrgghh!
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 09:35 PM   #10
War Child
 
MsGiggles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 905
Local Time: 03:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It was to prevent men from being tempted when seeing the beautiful form of the women.
If they're doing it to prevent men from being tempted, then why live in western countries where there are lots of beautiful women
__________________
MsGiggles is offline  
Old 01-16-2006, 10:29 PM   #11
Refugee
 
Sue DeNym's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: The Beautiful Pacific Northwest!
Posts: 1,608
Local Time: 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra
Why is it always the women who have to do/wear the shitty stuff so the men "won't be tempted?"
Good question. And it can be expanded.

Why should a woman have to walk several blocks out of her way because the construction workers have to wolf-whistle, catcall and make obscene gestures when she walks past the site?

Why does a female customer service worker have to put up with smutty remarks, leers and male customers staring at her breasts in the name of "good customer service"?

Why is a rape victim accused of "asking for it"?

Why can't we all just control ourselves, mind our manners and treat each other with respect and decency?!
__________________
Sue DeNym is offline  
Old 01-17-2006, 12:39 AM   #12
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 06:24 PM
While I wholeheartedly share the above frustrations, it is more than a bit of a stretch to draw a blanket equation between such sleights and burka-wearing as an expression of particular ideals of modesty, propriety and piety. Having been raised in an Orthodox Jewish community where men and women alike dressed conservatively (which, for many of the women, included head coverings), I can assert with confidence that while this style of dress obviously embodied some views that were out of step with mainstream American sensibilities, it NEVER led to a belief that women who didn't dress in this way were thereby deserving of contempt, harassment or violence. Perhaps--maybe even probably--the immigrant, Old-World-European Jewish ancestors of many of my cohorts experienced such feelings of shock and contempt at these and other American ways upon arrival, but over time--certainly by the time I came along--such radical feelings of disidentification were long forgotten.

If there were a serious problem in the Netherlands with Muslim women who choose not to wear a burka being subjected to violence from relatives over this choice, then that would be another matter. I doubt very much that this is the case, though, when only 50 women in the country actually wear it to begin with. In any case, making burka-wearing illegal for this reason would be inappropriate since it does not address the underlying problem, namely regarding violence as an acceptable way to influence the behaviors and lifestyle of members of the private communities to which one belongs.
__________________
yolland is offline  
Old 01-17-2006, 04:35 AM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Song of the week "sentimental" by Porcupine Tree
Posts: 3,854
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by indra


Perhaps it would work better to blind the men.

Or castrate them.

thats what Tabilan guys did..
__________________
AcrobatMan is offline  
Old 01-17-2006, 06:32 AM   #14
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 04:24 AM
Doesn't help that Mr Wilder is a fruit. Sorry, Dutch friends.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 01-17-2006, 06:55 AM   #15
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Doesn't help that Mr Wilder is a fruit. Sorry, Dutch friends.
We already know, with hair like that.



__________________

__________________
Popmartijn is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com