The Dutch government to ban burqa? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-17-2006, 07:11 AM   #16
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 11:39 AM
Marty!!!!! That burns my retinas! I'd sue you if I was American
__________________

__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 01-17-2006, 07:13 AM   #17
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Popmartijn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 32,543
Local Time: 01:39 AM
__________________

__________________
Popmartijn is offline  
Old 01-17-2006, 12:49 PM   #18
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 760
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy
You can be an impeccably pious Muslim without a burqa. This is a cultural tradition in certain countries justified by religion, not the other way around. I think it has a lot to do with protecting the face from sandstorms in Arabia (makes sense there but not a feature of the North West European climate last time I checked).

The Dutch are right to liberate those Muslim women in their country whose menfolk require such unnecessary and possibly repressive cultural practices.
Very right that this is more cultural than religious. The interpreters and teachers of the Koran in the Muslim countries are mostly men...it's in their interest to maintain the traditional roles of women of being subservient and what not.

The Koran's stipulation about dressing/looking/behaving modestly applies to both men and women:

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their chastity; that is purer for them. And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their chastity, and not to make a display of their beauty except what is apparent, and let them cast a cover over their bosoms.... And turn to Allah (God) altogether, O believers, in order that you might succeed (Koran 24: 30-31)."

And, hey, I don't know the Bible that well, but you could pick out certain passages and try to say that the book teaches women be second class citizens, such as these:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 of the New Testament of the Bible states:

"As in all Churches of the saints, the woman should be subordinate as even the law says...for it is shameful for a woman to speak in church."

1 Timothy 2:11 states:

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men. She is to keep silent, for Adam was formed first then Eve, and Adam was not deceived but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

1 Corinthians 11:6 says:

" For if a woman will not veil herself then she should cut off her hair, but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil...for man was not created from woman but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman but woman for man."

-----------------

An enlightened society, however, probably shouldn't be using thousands of years old "directions" so literally. The West, at least in the last 80 years, has done a good job of moving toward men-women equality. Something so obviously and sadly lacking in most "Muslim" countries.
__________________
Judah is offline  
Old 01-18-2006, 12:22 AM   #19
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Zoomerang96's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: canada
Posts: 13,459
Local Time: 06:39 PM
well that's pathetic.

as backwards as their dress code is to me, who, WHO is anyone to say how anyone can dress???
__________________
Zoomerang96 is offline  
Old 01-18-2006, 05:03 AM   #20
Refugee
 
fly so high!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: St Andrews NSW Australia
Posts: 1,835
Local Time: 10:39 AM
The dutch are not the first to do this, the french have already banned kids from wearing them at school!
Personally, i think its a violation of one's civil rights, having said that, i want my christmas carols back in our shopping centres and our ATM's to say "Merry christmas" instead of "Happy Holidays" when it comes to season greetings!
__________________
fly so high! is offline  
Old 03-16-2006, 06:33 PM   #21
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: full of sound and fury
Posts: 3,386
Local Time: 01:39 PM
http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid28050.asp

Quote:
Would-be immigrants to the Netherlands must watch kiss video

The camera focuses on two gay men kissing in a park. Later a topless woman emerges from the sea and walks onto a crowded beach. For would-be immigrants to the Netherlands, this film is a test of their readiness to participate in the liberal Dutch culture. If they can't stomach it, no need to apply.

Whether or not they find the film offensive, applicants must buy a copy and watch it if they hope to pass the nation's new entrance examination. The test, the first of its kind in the world, became compulsory Wednesday and was made available at 138 Dutch embassies around the world.

Taking the exam costs $420, while the price for a preparation package that includes the film, a CD-ROM, and a picture album of famous Dutch people is $75.

"As of [March 15] immigrants wishing to settle in the Netherlands for, in particular, the purposes of marrying or forming a relationship will be required to take the civic integration examination abroad," the immigration ministry said in a statement.

The test is part of a broader crackdown on immigration that has been gathering momentum in the Netherlands since 2001. Anti-immigration sentiment peaked with filmmaker Theo van Gogh's murder by a Dutch national of Moroccan descent in November 2004.

Both praise and scorn have been heaped on immigration minister Rita Verdonk, the architect of the new test and other policies that have successfully reduced immigration by at least a third. "If you pass, you're more than welcome," Verdonk said. "It is in the interest of Dutch society and those concerned."

Not everyone is happy with the new test. "Today is a black day for the people intending to bring their partners to Holland," said Buitenlandse Partner, a lobbying group for mixed Dutch-immigrant couples.

Dutch theologian Karel Steenbrink criticized the 105-minute movie, saying it would be offensive to some Muslims. "It is not a prudent way of welcoming people to the Netherlands," said Steenbrink, a professor at the University of Utrecht. "Minister Verdonk has radical ideas."

There are some major exemptions. EU nationals, asylum seekers, and skilled workers who earn more than $54,000 per year will not be required to take the 30-minute computerized exam. Also, citizens of the United States, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Japan, and Switzerland are exempt.

A censored version with no gay or nude material had been prepared since "it's unlawful to show them in Iran" and some other countries, filmmaker Walter Goverde said. "With all the respect I have for all religions, I think people need to understand that Holland has its own liberal side as well," he said.

After viewing the film, which is available in most languages, applicants are then quizzed on important Dutch factoids such as the number of provinces that make up the Netherlands; the role played by William of Orange in the country's history; and Queen Beatrix's monarchial functions. Mohammed Sini, the chairman of Islam and Citizenship, a national Muslim organization, defended the film, saying that homosexuality is "a reality." (AP)
My emphasis in bold.

This is not the right way to go about it

foray
__________________
foray is offline  
Old 03-16-2006, 07:45 PM   #22
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 11:39 AM
What on earth is happening to The Netherlands? Their liberal side forgot how to be liberal by asking all burqas be removed, to hell with how that makes the wearer feel. Now it is going beyond ridiculous by testing how aptly comone can cope with topless women and 2 men kissing? What a crock.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 03-16-2006, 08:40 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 07:39 PM


you've got to be kidding me.

kind of funny in a way though, i won't lie. assimilation to the culture apparently requires watching near pornographic videos.
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 02:05 AM   #24
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
What on earth is happening to The Netherlands? Their liberal side forgot how to be liberal by asking all burqas be removed, to hell with how that makes the wearer feel. Now it is going beyond ridiculous by testing how aptly comone can cope with topless women and 2 men kissing? What a crock.
Really? What does a liberal society do when the core liberal values of free expression, sexual liberation and secularism are threatened by religious bigots? Is it expected to respect and protect a culture that seeks to destroy the host culture?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:06 AM   #25
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Really? What does a liberal society do when the core liberal values of free expression, sexual liberation and secularism are threatened by religious bigots? Is it expected to respect and protect a culture that seeks to destroy the host culture?
In the past it has started with hate speeches, moved to martial law and then on to detention camps. Remember?

Quote:
Washington Pulse -- White House 'Hate Speech' Takes on Life of Its Own
http://news.pacificnews.org/news/vie...93230d41c2c3ca

Quote:
Homeland Security Contracts for Vast New Detention Camps
http://news.pacificnews.org/news/vie...6fe03f4c9b3a77
__________________
AliEnvy is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:34 AM   #26
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 12:39 AM
They're turning their society into a "one size fits all" place. I don't know what's happening to the Netherlands, either.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 09:43 AM   #27
Refugee
 
AliEnvy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 2,320
Local Time: 12:39 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
They're turning their society into a "one size fits all" place. I don't know what's happening to the Netherlands, either.
I can't help but wonder if the stated intent of the Ducth protecting themselves may in effect end up protecting observant muslims who are not as easily identified without burqas. That would be outlandishly hopeful and well, rather liberal.
__________________
AliEnvy is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 01:45 PM   #28
Blue Crack Addict
 
verte76's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: hoping for changes
Posts: 23,331
Local Time: 12:39 AM
If the Dutch think they can solve all of their immigration problems by forbidding a Central Asian headdress and forcing every immigrant to be relaxed when they kiss, they're sadly misled.
__________________
verte76 is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 05:16 PM   #29
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 01:39 AM

It's highly unlikely that this one's going to fly. The government simply doesn't have the legal tools to tell people what to wear in public. And on top of that, religious symbols enjoy extra legal protection. It's more likely that wearing a burqa will be banned in cases when covering up the face might pose a security risk, such as airports or demonstrations. It's all about symbol politics really; I don't even think we're talking about 100 women in the entire country. Not exactly a sign of a society being on the road to destruction. In that sense, the proposed ban is a lot more worrying for those who like as little governmental meddling as possible.
__________________
DrTeeth is offline  
Old 03-17-2006, 07:31 PM   #30
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: full of sound and fury
Posts: 3,386
Local Time: 01:39 PM
It angers me that this new policy targets a very specific group, because you can find conservative homophobes aplenty in the "exempted" countries.

foray
__________________

__________________
foray is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com