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Old 04-29-2003, 05:15 AM   #46
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if you compared death penalty with abortion i'd suggest to start to think about euthanasia and scientific researches at embryos.

-death penatly: strictly against it, because it dosn't have any advantage about imprisoning somebody (maybe it's cheaper, but money shouldn't be a reason for killing someone)

-abortion: i'm not sure about this one, i guess it definetly should be a choice if the life of the mother is in danger, maybe also if there will be psychological damage to her. If the kid is healthy and the mother won't take any damage i think adoption would be a much wiser choice.

- euthanasia: i guess everyone should have the right to end his life - also i think it's stupid, aren't we dead long enough anyway?

- science: good question, about the same tricky question like the abortion thing.. where does life begin?

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Old 04-29-2003, 10:05 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
-abortion: i'm not sure about this one, i guess it definetly should be a choice if the life of the mother is in danger, maybe also if there will be psychological damage to her. If the kid is healthy and the mother won't take any damage i think adoption would be a much wiser choice.
I agree abortion should be an option if the mother's life would otherwise be endangered. That just makes logical sense, as if the mother wasn't able to have an abortion in that situation then both mother and child would die.

However, I get suspicious of the "psychological damage" argument, for the simple reason that in the UK, abortion is supposedly only permitted in certain circumstances. One of those circumstances is "harm to the mental health of the mother" - 92% of all abortions in this country are carried out under that category. Basically, it translates into abortion on demand.

Finally, you said "if the kid is healthy" - does that mean you'd agree with abortion if the child had a significant disability? The reason I disagree with that is I think it's essentially saying to people who have a disability that it would be better if they'd never been born. (I'm not accusing you of saying that, of course, it's just my opinion.)
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Old 04-29-2003, 11:04 AM   #48
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FizzingWhizzbees:

to the harm of the mental health.. i said i didn't make up my mind finaly, it was just a rough draft of my mind.. nothing which should become law
So.. if it's a mental harm she shouldn't have to get her baby, but who could judge?
Is it in the UK like in germany where the women have to go to a kind of "aborton consulting service" (done by pastors) before they can go to the M.D.?

I was thinking about disabilities which would make it impossible for the kid to survive or dead unborn babies...

I know what i personally think about abortion, but i'm unsure what i think would be right everyone has to do.

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Old 04-29-2003, 11:32 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
However, I get suspicious of the "psychological damage" argument, for the simple reason that in the UK, abortion is supposedly only permitted in certain circumstances. One of those circumstances is "harm to the mental health of the mother" - 92% of all abortions in this country are carried out under that category. Basically, it translates into abortion on demand.
Interesting. I'd compare the "psychological damage" of the pregnancy with the "psychological damage" after the abortion.
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Old 04-29-2003, 05:02 PM   #50
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nbcrusader:

we are humans, no machines so the psychological damage is a verry individualistic thing
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Old 05-03-2003, 04:03 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus

Is it in the UK like in germany where the women have to go to a kind of "aborton consulting service" (done by pastors) before they can go to the M.D.?
Sorry this reply is really late, I've not been online in a few days. But we don't have any kind of compulsory counselling like that in the UK. In fact very often women receive counselling about abortion from the very people who will then charge her money to have an abortion - I'm sure they're very impartial! Of course women are free to seek counselling from whoever they choose, and in theory they are supposed to receive counselling prior to making a decision about abortion, but there's no guarantee that she'll receive unbiased, or even very helpful information.
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Old 05-04-2003, 05:44 PM   #52
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After FizzingWhizzbees reminded me in another thread..
there also lots of ai - urgent actions against death penalty in the US.

If you want to try to save lifes go for example to this ai link or this one you can find lots of others at www.amnesty.org just imagine - maybe saving lifes with typing a letter!

FizzingWhizzbees:
I never liked the german system, but it seems not to be the worst one thanks for providing that informations

Klaus
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Old 05-04-2003, 09:23 PM   #53
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I don't know, nb, but I was wondering the same thing. To me, "Viability" makes no difference in the whole issue, for the exact reason you stated.
I provided my professional scientific opinion of the situation. To be blunt, you don't have to understand it, it is the way it is, because I have come to the conclusion after much reading of the material. Just like I don't have to understand some of your opinions stemming from the Bible, you don't have to understand why the viability issue is relevant in my eyes, that's all. Different strokes for different folks, as you will. This is a topic where individual values or opinions do play a role, we're not discussing the factual validity of Einstein's special theory on length contraction.
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Old 05-05-2003, 09:48 AM   #54
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I just typed an entire post in reply to this and then it got lost when I tried to send it. Anyway...my original question was this:

The argument about "viability" appears to state that abortion is justifiable because a fetus of say 20-weeks couldn't survive outside of the mother's body. It is entirely dependent on the mother for its survival and so abortion is justifiable.

However...isn't a one-week old child also entirely dependent on the mother (or another adult) for its survival? A newborn can't survive without care from its mother. And yet nobody would ever argue that it's okay to kill a newborn because it's dependent on the mother for survival. What about people with disabilities which mean they depend on other people to enable them to live? Is it okay to kill them because they're entirely dependent on other people?

The entire argument about "viability" essentially comes down to the fact that an unborn child is entirely dependent on the mother and so it's okay to kill it because it couldn't survive without its mother. But we don't ever use that argument with regard to other people (young children, people with disabilities, etc) who are entirely dependent on others for their suvival, so why is it okay to use the "viability" justification as an argument in favour of abortion?

Sorry if this question offends anyone, I'm just curious about how people justify this.
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Old 05-05-2003, 09:50 AM   #55
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And I also meant to ask...does "viability" make any difference to the question of whether an unborn child is really a "life" or really a "person" or not?
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Old 05-06-2003, 06:24 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees
And I also meant to ask...does "viability" make any difference to the question of whether an unborn child is really a "life" or really a "person" or not?
Of course there is no difference, but if the baby is just alive because of lots of machines and it's just suffering 24h/day - do you think it's a good idea to let it live as long as possible?
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Old 05-10-2003, 07:08 PM   #57
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Can any sane, moral person really be against the Death Penalty
when it comes to paedophile scum and child murderers. These sub-human Arseholes lose any human rights including the right to life when they commit these vile, wretched crimes. The only thing I have against the Death Penalty is that it's the easy way out for these bastards. They should suffer unimaginable pain and torture before Death takes them to the deepest reaches of hell.

There are too many do-gooding "Oh they killed someone but it does'nt matter" people out there.

IF SOMEONE HAS TAKEN THE LIFE OF ANOTHER, ESPECIALLY A CHILD AND IT IS BEYOND DOUBT THAT THEY HAVE COMMITED THE MOST EVIL OF CRIMES.........THEN THEY SHOULD DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why should any decent law abiding citizen have to pay through their taxation to keep this sort of excrement alive in jail, with three meals a day, and what basically amounts to hotel accomodation, especially in England where I live. We are so soft on these parasites over here it's unbelievable. Do they suffer? Do they rot in the stench of their own decay? NO THEY F*****G
DON'T!! I'll tell you what happens shall I? They get let out of jail early, are given new identities to start a lovely new life and live happily ever after. What sort of f***ing punishment is that???

Those of you that have the death penalty should be grateful for it as it cleanses the purest forms of evil from our planet.

Recently in my country a bastard piece of shit KILLED HIS OWN TWO SONS just to (wait for it) get back at his wife for their recent separation. Now anyone who tells me that this f***ing insect has the right to live needs their pea-sized head testing to see if they have the communal brain cell lurking somewhere in the darkness.

I know that the ultimate jugement lays in God's hands but it is our DUTY as decent Human Beings to deliver these scum sucking, puss filled, bags of shit to him with as much voltage as possible

Any possibility of the death sentence in MY country gets my vote.

PEACE!
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Old 05-10-2003, 10:47 PM   #58
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Greenbax, I understand your passionate feelings on this subject, but we try to keep our language clean and objective here in FYM.

Thanks.
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Old 05-10-2003, 11:02 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenbax
Can any sane, moral person really be against the Death Penalty when it comes to paedophile scum and child murderers.
And what about fetuses with genetic abnormalities and other undesirable traits? I have a feeling that if a gay gene was found and could be identified in unborn children, we'd have a few holy rollers changing their minds on the whole "pro-life" thing...

I find the idea of judging who is fit to live and who isn't fit to live to be repugnant. What makes it okay for the state to decide who should live and who should die, while it is not okay for "scum" to decide who lives and who should die? If you are as religious as your "I know that the ultimate judgment lays in God's hands" line implies, then you should know that, by killing these people, we potentially take away their chance for repentance and salvation that they may have found spending 50 years in prison until their natural death.

However, I've never expected religion to be consistent. State-sponsored murder is an ages-old, time-honored tradition in different colors and fashions. However, murder by any other name is still the same...

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Old 05-11-2003, 07:07 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by greenbax
There are too many do-gooding "Oh they killed someone but it does'nt matter" people out there.


No, try again. I'm against the death penalty and I'm of the opinion that "they killed someone, it DOES matter, they should spend the rest of their life in prison." People who murder should be imprisoned in order to both punish them and protect others from their crimes.

Quote:
IF SOMEONE HAS TAKEN THE LIFE OF ANOTHER, ESPECIALLY A CHILD AND IT IS BEYOND DOUBT THAT THEY HAVE COMMITED THE MOST EVIL OF CRIMES.........THEN THEY SHOULD DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How are you going to know that beyond doubt? What about the numerous cases where an innocent person has been sentenced to death? Who decides what crimes are worthy of the death penalty?

Quote:
Why should any decent law abiding citizen have to pay through their taxation to keep this sort of excrement alive in jail, with three meals a day, and what basically amounts to hotel accomodation, especially in England where I live.


It's more expensive to execute a person than to keep them in prison for life.

I'm from England too and I'm really curious about where your "hotel accomodation" evidence is from. Last time I checked British prisons were unbelievably over-crowded and have huge problems with drugs and violence.

Quote:
I'll tell you what happens shall I? They get let out of jail early, are given new identities to start a lovely new life and live happily ever after. What sort of f***ing punishment is that???


You're referring to the two boys who murdered James Bulger and were released after serving eight years, right? You might want to note that they were children when they committed their crimes so were treated very differently to an adult committing a similar crime. You can debate the rights and wrongs of that all day, but don't pretend that's the treatment given to all murderers.


Quote:
Those of you that have the death penalty should be grateful for it as it cleanses the purest forms of evil from our planet.


It also kills innocent people. As long as you have the death penalty, you will have innocent people being sentenced to death, simply because humans are imperfect and judges are wrong sometimes.

Quote:
Recently in my country a bastard piece of shit KILLED HIS OWN TWO SONS just to (wait for it) get back at his wife for their recent separation. Now anyone who tells me that this f***ing insect has the right to live needs their pea-sized head testing to see if they have the communal brain cell lurking somewhere in the darkness.
I say this in the nicest way possible: your arguments are a lot stronger if you refrain from insulting those who disagree with you.

That said, I will tell that I don't believe the state has a right to kill that person.

Quote:
I know that the ultimate jugement lays in God's hands but it is our DUTY as decent Human Beings to deliver these scum sucking, puss filled, bags of shit to him with as much voltage as possible


What is the purpose of the death penalty? To punish? Imprisoning a person for life punishes them. To protect society? Again - put them in prison for life and solve that problem. Vengeance? That's the only purpose of the death penalty - some kind of desire for revenge.

Please tell me where you get this idea that humans have some kind of duty to allow state-sponsored murder. You state that the ultimate judgement lies in God's hands, so how do you reconcile that with the belief that humans have the right to decide who lives and who dies. Ignore all the rest of my post if you like, but I am genuinely interested in how you reconcile your religious beliefs with support for the death penalty.

Quote:
Any possibility of the death sentence in MY country gets my vote.
Right now the BNP are the only party to support the death penalty and I sincerely hope no decent, rational person would vote for them.

(For anyone who's not from the UK, the BNP are a far-right, racist party. They advocate an "all-white Britain" and believe the Holocaust never happened. Sadly they now hold 13 council seats across the UK.)
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