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Old 04-27-2003, 11:24 PM   #16
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Of course I am. I'm against abortions. I don't think they should ever happen. But I recognize that in some cases, they are necessary and, yes, even justifiable. I'm also against eminent domain, taxes, pollution, highway construction, aspartame, deforestation, and motor vehicles in general. But they exist, and at least some of those things are unavoidable facts of life.

I'm much more concerned with trying to create a society in which abortion is no longer necessary, rather than simply trying to make a decision which should ultimately lie with a woman and her doctor illegal.
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Old 04-27-2003, 11:50 PM   #17
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I am anti-adultery, anti-lying, anti-smoking and many other things that I believe should not be illegal.

I certainly am not pro any of the above.
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Old 04-28-2003, 12:08 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora

I'm much more concerned with trying to create a society in which abortion is no longer necessary, rather than simply trying to make a decision which should ultimately lie with a woman and her doctor illegal.
What is so difficult about making abortion unncessary? It's as simple as people not having sex unless they're ready to deal with the possible consequences. That's a part of maturity.

Also, where the decision should lie is at the center of the whole debate. I happen to disagree with you. If I am right, if a fetus is indeed a living human being, then the choice most definitely does not lie with the woman, unless of course, you believe a woman should have a right to commit murder.
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Old 04-28-2003, 03:09 AM   #19
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Sorry to sidetrack so blatantly here, but 80's its not a matter of abstinence. Safe sex and sex education are more realistic ways of reaching pax's ideals on less instance of abortion. Few people can abstain. It is a whole lot easier to accept that people might have risky sex, and work with that, rather than eliminating the act altogether. Which I know is not the point you are trying to make, And I know that 100% abstinence is THE only surefire safe sex methond, but its not realistic. We gotta work with how things are.

In a broader sense, relating more to the topic though, killing people has many names in our society. I think if we are that sure that murderers should be sentenced to death, we have to look at least at how we define murder. It is known under the names of murder, manslaughter and abortion to name a few. So if we think killing of convicted criminals is a just action, then can we keep accepting these others as something different? In a borad sense, murder is killing someone. Simple as that. If you support the execution of criminals, why not anyone else who may end someone's life? Such as a case of a woman aborting a pregnancy she cannot continue with, or a store clerk who kills the robber before he shoots him? The only difference is really that the criminal is a 'bad person'. They're no more or less guilty of actually taking a life than the other, so how can it be ok for one and not the other when the only real difference is the nature of the person who ended the life?

That is my main reason for not supporting the death penalty. Simplistic perhaps, but when it comes down to it, in black and white it is ending a life. I dont think we can base a view of acceptance on the fact that such criminals have a different mind set to those in other situations where they may end someone's life.
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Old 04-28-2003, 08:33 AM   #20
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Add me to the anti-death penalty and anti-abortion list.
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Old 04-28-2003, 10:21 AM   #21
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back to the death penalty, I suggest you read this series.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...tory.htmlstory
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Old 04-28-2003, 11:34 AM   #22
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thanks sharky for the link, i didn't read the articles itself because i have no subsription to the chicaco tribune (yet) but the abstracts of the articles are verry interesting.

Klaus
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Old 04-28-2003, 11:49 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Safe sex and sex education are more realistic ways of reaching pax's ideals on less instance of abortion. Few people can abstain. It is a whole lot easier to accept that people might have risky sex, and work with that, rather than eliminating the act altogether. Which I know is not the point you are trying to make, And I know that 100% abstinence is THE only surefire safe sex methond, but its not realistic. We gotta work with how things are.
You say it's not possible. It sure is possible. I haven't had sex in 13 years. 13 years. But in this society, have we come to accept that people are animals, unable to control themselves ? I guess so. That's what we see on TV after all. That's what we hear on the radio. No one acts maturely anymore, no one takes responsibility.
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Old 04-28-2003, 11:56 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Few people can abstain.
Everyone can abstain. Few people want to.
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Old 04-28-2003, 02:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
thanks sharky for the link, i didn't read the articles itself because i have no subsription to the chicaco tribune (yet) but the abstracts of the articles are verry interesting.

Klaus
I think the subscription is free -- all you have to do is sign up. the series won a Pulitzer and was one of the main driving forces behind Gov. Ryan's decision to abolish the death penalty in Illinois.
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Old 04-28-2003, 04:40 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Sorry to sidetrack so blatantly here, but 80's its not a matter of abstinence. Safe sex and sex education are more realistic ways of reaching pax's ideals on less instance of abortion. Few people can abstain. It is a whole lot easier to accept that people might have risky sex, and work with that, rather than eliminating the act altogether. Which I know is not the point you are trying to make, And I know that 100% abstinence is THE only surefire safe sex methond, but its not realistic. We gotta work with how things are.

In a broader sense, relating more to the topic though, killing people has many names in our society. I think if we are that sure that murderers should be sentenced to death, we have to look at least at how we define murder. It is known under the names of murder, manslaughter and abortion to name a few. So if we think killing of convicted criminals is a just action, then can we keep accepting these others as something different? In a borad sense, murder is killing someone. Simple as that. If you support the execution of criminals, why not anyone else who may end someone's life? Such as a case of a woman aborting a pregnancy she cannot continue with, or a store clerk who kills the robber before he shoots him? The only difference is really that the criminal is a 'bad person'. They're no more or less guilty of actually taking a life than the other, so how can it be ok for one and not the other when the only real difference is the nature of the person who ended the life?

That is my main reason for not supporting the death penalty. Simplistic perhaps, but when it comes down to it, in black and white it is ending a life. I dont think we can base a view of acceptance on the fact that such criminals have a different mind set to those in other situations where they may end someone's life.
Exactly.

I should have said "pro-choice" instead of "pro-abortion"-that's what I meant, I'm pro-choice.

I personally would never think of having an abortion unless in a really screwed up situation...but I'm all for women having the right to make that decision. I understand they have their reasons, I understand that it's THEIR body, THEIR business (everyone else can just butt out), so...if they have an abortion...okay.

Anywho, back on track with the death penalty...Angela Harlem makes another good reason as to why the death penalty is wrong.

Angela
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Old 04-28-2003, 05:05 PM   #27
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It is interesting how selective we are in the approval of an individual's choice in their own matters. There are plenty of private matters where we do not give the individual choice.

Looking at it another way, would you sit quietly while a parent started hitting their child? You may think corporal punishment is wrong; but, its their choice.

And the choice argument is soundly denounced when it comes to schooling a child.

Either abortion is wrong (killing another person) or it is not. "Choice" is nothing more than semantics.
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Old 04-28-2003, 05:06 PM   #28
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sharky:
yes, but i had no time when i checked the articles, i was working and just waiting that the big computer would finish his calculation job

I allways thought there would be many pro death penalty people in the US. But either that changed, this thread is flooded by international writers or u2 fans have simply a different view on that

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Old 04-28-2003, 05:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
It is interesting how selective we are in the approval of an individual's choice in their own matters. There are plenty of private matters where we do not give the individual choice.

Looking at it another way, would you sit quietly while a parent started hitting their child? You may think corporal punishment is wrong; but, its their choice.
The difference is this: With child abuse, someone's life is in danger. With abortion, since some people don't consider it to be murder and don't consider the fetus to be an actual person until the day it is born (like me), a life isn't in danger.

Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
Either abortion is wrong (killing another person) or it is not. "Choice" is nothing more than semantics.
Abortion isn't that black and white an issue, though. Everyone has their own idea of when life actually begins, and some people consider it murder, others don't, and things like that.

Angela
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Old 04-28-2003, 06:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Abortion isn't that black and white an issue, though. Everyone has their own idea of when life actually begins, and some people consider it murder, others don't, and things like that.
So, the principle is - as long as we disagree on the subject matter, we can each choose what we deem best?

Using the example - a parent might think the corporal punishment is in the best interest of the child. Is it now choice?

I realize we can debate until the Second Coming on when life begins. But, can a person who believes abortion is the taking of a life (murder) still leave it as someone elses choice?
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