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Old 11-08-2006, 05:03 AM   #76
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think you are all overlooking that this opposition is a good thing, bridging the divide between Muslim and Jew

I remain adament that when believers start getting along then something very wrong will be done to the unbelievers.
So the Muslims & Jews shared a common interest on this matter, and joined so they can dominate over the homosexual community? So now does this mean that some groups may unite, but regardless there will always be class struggle?

Ugh...I'm not a big fan of Marxism, but it kinda sounds like his theory to me....but this time with division among cultures instead of economic classes, doesn't it?

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Old 11-08-2006, 05:06 AM   #77
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I think it has more to do with commonality between religious bigots than class struggle; religions themselves prove the best case against them.

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Old 11-08-2006, 05:13 AM   #78
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think it has more to do with commonality between religious bigots than class struggle; religions themselves prove the best case against them.
Hehe, true true...but I just can't help but think that this means that whereever we are, no matter how far we have evolved as a society, there will always be a struggle. Groups can unite, but they will be uniting solely to prevent another group from overcoming discrimination and injustice.

That's why I don't like Marx...b/c it makes history, present, AND future seem so bleak and depressing. How can there be hope if a theory like that proves true throughout time? It's like 'oh, well we decided it is wrong to discriminate against group now we're friends. But now it is time to discriminate against group b.'
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Old 12-13-2006, 11:57 PM   #79
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Re: The dark side of the rainbow....

Originally posted by AchtungBono
Personally, I have no problem with gay pride parades anywhere, however I think the decision to hold it in such a unique city as Jerusalem was in poor taste, to say the least. I think the organizers should have taken the feelings of the religious communities into account and move the parade elsewhere, in the interest of public safety.
The Jewish sect most responsible for the violence involving this parade has some other quite "interesting" stances:

Extremist Jewish Sect Opposed To Gays Embraces Iran Anti-Holocaust Conference
by Newscenter Staff

Posted: December 14, 2006 12:01 am ET

(Jerusalem) Members of an ultra Orthodox Jewish sect that staged nightly riots last month in Jerusalem to pressure the government into canceling a gay pride march were front and center this week at an Iranian government forum sitting side by side with holocaust deniers.

The Haredi believe only in the strict interpretation of the Bible, dispute the authority of the Israeli government and disavow Zionism as anti-Jewish.

This week leaders and members of the sect flew to Tehran to take part in the holocaust conference set up by Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who claims that the holocaust is a Zionist invention.

The Haredi delegation was given seats in the front row where the group with its traditional hats and long beards could not be missed by TV cameras. The group applauded when Ahmadinejad declared that Israel will one day be "wiped out" as the Soviet Union was.

The conference drew holocaust deniers from around the world, including former KKK leader David Duke.

A Haredi spokesperson in Jerusalem defended the group's participation in the conference.

"They wanted to make it clear in Tehran that Zionism uses the Holocaust as an excuse for the existence of the Zionist state in the Land of Israel," said Israel Hirsch.

When Jerusalem's LGBT community Center Open House announced plans for a gay pride parade last month conservative wings of the major world religions denounced the parade but the Haredi turned violent.

For a week members of the sect took to the streets nightly, overturning garbage cans and setting them on fire. More than a dozen people were injured and the sect warned that if the parade went forward there would be bloodshed.

In the end the march was scrapped because of unrest in Gaza. Instead of a parade gays rallied at Hebrew University's sports stadium. Still there was a high police presence and several members of the sect were arrested trying to enter the area.

Last year members of the Haredi sect lined streets and threw bottles, stones and bags containing feces at gay marchers. One young Haredi member, Shai Schlissel, rushed into the marchers on Ben Yehuda Street stabbing a man and a woman.

Others in the parade attempted to subdue him. The third victim was a marcher who went to the aid of the other two victims.

Schlissel is in prison for the attack.
Knowing this, should Israel's gay community have cowered to a fanatical group like this? The funny thing is that Haredi not only hates the thought of gay people in Jerusalem, but also seems to hate the thought of Israelis in Jerusalem.
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:32 AM   #80
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Yes, specifically those were the Neturei Karta, who AchtungBono mentioned in her post about that conference. Haredim is an inappropriate term in this case; that is not a "sect," but rather a general synonym for what we might call ultra-Orthodox Jews, which encompasses everything from truly creepy fundies like the NK to the Hasidim to various apolitical sects who live in insular communities and practice a very traditional Orthodox lifestyle. Not all haredim are anti-Zionist by any means; it's probably safe to say that few if any are gay-friendly, though only certain sects get political about it. All the rabbis who attended Ahmadinejad's conference were NK; I'm not sure if they were the only sect involved in the parade protests or not, though from what I've read the protest tactics do sound like classic NK. (I checked their website, and they have stories up bragging about their participation in both.) My guess is there were probably some other extremist-leaning haredim involved in the rioting, but I don't really know.

Basically the NK are like a Jewish equivalent of Westboro Baptist Church, only unfortunately with a good few thousand members and much better political organization. For the most part they aren't Holocaust deniers per se, however, they do regard the Holocaust as deserved, divinely mandated punishment and consider its relationship to Zionism one more strike against the latter, which they already see as a profane, heretical secular ideology (because it does not involve waiting for the Messiah). There were some NK in the area of Brooklyn we used to live in, and I remember them holding "counterdemonstrations" (for lack of a better word) on Holocaust Remembrance Day to highlight the aforementioned schtick...that went over real well with the neighbors.
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Old 12-14-2006, 08:19 AM   #81
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I don't see why they can't have the march in Jerusalem. The rioters are the people who should be called on the carpet, not the gay pride people. They only want to have a march.

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