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Old 09-07-2004, 02:37 AM   #76
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There have been numberous eyewitness accounts of what went on inside the school, there were rapes (obviously), mutilations (kiddies with their eyes cut gouged out by these jihadi's), stabbings (a child way bayonnetted after asking for some water) and people had to drink their own urine because of the sheer thirst (now if it had been Iraqi detainees who did that there would be no end to the global condemnation but innocent Russian kids, who cares).

The CT operation looked fucked, firstly they didn't establish a proper perimeter, they didn't maintain chopper sweeps around the buildings or have a ready to go breach team. Having said that that Euro(trash) Minister (comeon I just don't like pan-Europeanism) Bot was way out of line when he directed criticism to Putin directly over the responsibility for the attack - nobody was responsible for this slaughter other than the Jihadi's and their enablers/sponsers. There should be a full investigation to establish who was involved and how it went down but to level that "root causes" and "cycle of violence" bullshit at the victim is just as bad as their treatment of Israel after terror attacks.

I have my doubts that these attacks are based of a nationalist agenda - this was religious death cult apocalypse style terror, suicide terrorism against innocent people on such scale is restricted to Islamic Terrrorism, you simply do not see groups like ETA or the IRA go out and slaughter innocent kids by blowing themselves up with bombs but you see it happen all over the world by Islamic groups. If there was not a direct operational and monetary link to the Arabian networks then I would be suprised, if there was no ideological link then I would be astonished. Chechnya was transformed from a Nationalist conflict into a Religious one. There significant operational connections between the Islamist elements and global terror, it is sad but true fact in this Globalized world.

The best thing to aid the War on Terror is for Putin not to kill tens of thousands of innocent Chechens but to join in solidarity with Israel and the US to fight global terror, principally by getting Russia to stop arming the enemies of civilization with nuclear weapons/
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Old 09-07-2004, 03:18 AM   #77
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"comeon I just don't like pan-Europeanism"
Also you disslike it, no need to call it trash.

And there is at least some responsibility at the russian side if you look how many russians cooperated with the terrorists for money. (Angry citizens put money in the mouth of the Police chief at his funeral for example)
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Old 09-07-2004, 03:27 AM   #78
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Maybe a smiley would clarify better, it was a "Eurotrash" throwaway line, kinda funny light hearted not in an offensive "I loath anything European way because I am an inbred imbecilic hick" type of way , I genuinely like Europe and Europeans, I am just highly skeptical that the EU will be able to increase its influence in the long run after eastward expansion and the inevitable restructuring of its security as the world completes the transition from Cold War power structure to its next condition.

I agree there is responsibility on indiduals who aided the terrorists for money, I would also say that there is quite a bit of responsibility on the army for not structuring a proper rescue plan but to publicly raise questions to the leader of a country directly really seems like poor diplomatic form, especially considering the dead hadn't even been buried.
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Old 09-07-2004, 03:55 AM   #79
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I agree with you that it was the wrong time for such accusations and Bernard Bot excused allready for that .

Quote:
The best thing to aid the War on Terror is for Putin not to kill tens of thousands of innocent Chechens but to join in solidarity with Israel and the US to fight global terror, principally by getting Russia to stop arming the enemies of civilization with nuclear weapons
Mr. Putin is allready jumping on that train:
"He told two British newspapers that entering talks was akin to the West negotiating with Osama Bin Laden."

So the message is "do what you want to do in the name of counterterrorism and let us do what we want with the Chechens" (also we still have no proof who was responsible for that terroristic act and we don't want public investigations about that subject.

So... who are these terrorists?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3627586.stm

Though some hostages are reported to have recognised Doku Umarov from pictures shown them by investigators, little other evidence has otherwise been produced to support the claim.

Officials initially claimed there were nine or 10 Arabs among the hostage-takers - possibly in an attempt to back up their allegation of al-Qaeda involvement - but some surviving hostages have said they saw no Arabs in the school.

The only surviving hostage-taker so far shown on television spoke Russian with an accent typical for the North Caucasus.

The official Chechen rebel leader, Aslan Maskhadov, has condemned the seizure of the school.

Earlier, Mr Maskhadov's envoy in Europe, Ahmed Zakayev, said he had been told by the former Ingush leader, Ruslan Aushev, who tried to negotiate an end to the crisis, that the hostage takers were not themselves Chechen.

Interestingly, the Kommersant newspaper on Friday lent some support to this theory, saying investigators suspected that the ringleaders - or at least those who took part in the negotiations - were Magomet Yevloyev (an ethnic Ingush fighter close to Basayev), Vladimir Khodov (from North Ossetia) and an unnamed Russian, possibly one of Basayev's bodyguards.

If it turns out to be true that Chechens were not running the Beslan operation on the ground, this will be a new development.
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Old 09-07-2004, 04:22 AM   #80
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The nationality of those running the operation makes little difference, the political and dare I say religious ideology that inspires such unmitigated evil is the real problem here, one that I have no doubt Chechen nationalists are equally opposed to. The solution will not be a stepped up Chechnya campaign, it will come from solid cooperation against totalitarian Islam and not just using the War on Terror as a blanket excuse for any actions against pesky ethnic groups.
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Old 09-07-2004, 06:01 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally posted by Klaus
but some surviving hostages have said they saw no Arabs in the school.

[/B]
but some saw..and that is important.

"Before the assault the bandits started arguing with each other about something. I've spent a long time in Chechnya, I know the Chechen language, and they weren't speaking Chechen - they were just speaking a strange language like Arabic, and also Ingush.

"One of the gunmen was reading the Koran constantly, and I counted exactly 23 gunmen altogether. The leader was on the roof the whole time with a sniper's rifle. We realised that, because the others went to him for advice. "

"The older pupils were forced to carry desks to barricade the windows. When the assault started one of the bandits shouted 'I'll save you'. Everybody ran towards him and then he blew himself up, killing many people. "
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Old 09-07-2004, 06:18 AM   #82
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There is a difference between Arabs and Muslims, so it could be that people who aren't arabs spoke Arabic (the language of Q'ran).
Well all speculation until the investigations can tell us who is behind all this.

It could be:
-Arabs
-Chechns
-Muslims
-Christians
-Atheists

or even something different
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:29 PM   #83
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Pop quiz

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped & massacred by:
(a) Olga Corbutt
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwartzeneger
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1979, the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, & a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kid
(b) Charles Lindberg
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by:
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy & The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks of dynamite
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a) Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked & destroyed & thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonnie and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.

I think we can safely speculate that the monsters who did this were Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:33 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I think we can safely speculate that the monsters who did this were Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 & 40.
I thought there were reports that there were female terrorists involved too, just like in the theatre in Moscow.
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Old 09-07-2004, 02:36 PM   #85
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Ah good. equal oppertunity terror organizations - you gotta love them (with a neutron bomb!)
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Old 09-07-2004, 04:12 PM   #86
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A_Wanderer, there are plenty of incidents involving non-Muslim terrorists, including bombings, assassinations, and violent insurrections. Crass post-ings insinuating that all Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorists are uncalled for and unwelcome. Consider this your warning.
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Old 09-07-2004, 05:51 PM   #87
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
A_Wanderer, there are plenty of incidents involving non-Muslim terrorists, including bombings, assassinations, and violent insurrections. Crass post-ings insinuating that all Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorists are uncalled for and unwelcome. Consider this your warning.
A_Wanderer did not insinuate that all muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorist. He also did not deny that there are other non-muslim terrorist groups. It is a fact that Muslim extremist were the ones who committed each of the terrorist acts above. I do not know about the age thing, but that is probably generally correct for the terrorist acts he mentioned.
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:07 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Ah good. equal oppertunity terror organizations - you gotta love them (with a neutron bomb!)
to add, 2 islamic terrorist who blew up 50 civilians in Mumbai were females..that was around 26 august 2003
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:11 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally posted by paxetaurora
A_Wanderer, there are plenty of incidents involving non-Muslim terrorists, including bombings, assassinations, and violent insurrections. Crass post-ings insinuating that all Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are potential terrorists are uncalled for and unwelcome. Consider this your warning.
sorry to say that your reasoning & inference is rather weak?

please read the sequence of posts again !!!!
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Old 09-07-2004, 11:17 PM   #90
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btw whats the age of Osama..I bet he is over 40
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