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Old 06-03-2011, 11:22 PM   #781
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It's the far-Left that gives aid to Islamic Totalitarianism.


You were doing so well up until this. This is a grossly unfair mischaracterization.

I have seen plenty, and I mean plenty of left-wing sources decrying the lack of human rights in Middle Eastern countries. I would go so far as to say that liberal organizations have been leading the way as far as decrying human rights violations in Middle Eastern countries.

And yet because they don't go as far as labeling Muslims as a worldwide scourge, they are aiding Islamic Totalitarianism? That kind of over-inflated rhetoric serves no useful purpose other than furthering the us-vs-them divide in our political landscape. It's intellectually lazy and dishonest.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:52 PM   #782
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But it's just the opposite. It's the far-Left that gives aid to Islamic Totalitarianism. Why is that? Why is it that if a Christian speaks out about the lack of human rights in Muslim countries or if a conservative (Bill O'Reilly) states that "there is a Muslim problem in the world," it's those on the Left that walkout in protest or shout "Islamophobia!!" ??
This is because you only pay attention to certain media outlets. You've got to open your eyes a little more...



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You're quite right about that and that's exactly why I feel embarrassed about attitudes I had 10 years or so ago. They were hurtful. I still have a traditional view of marriage but I'm very careful how I present my arguments. I think they're defendable but I'm fine with those that disagree and respect those with an informed, albeit, opposite opinion
Well I'm glad that you're able to acknowledge this, but in all honesty you have a long way to go.
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:07 AM   #783
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When in doubt, vaguely throw around the term judicial activism.
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:41 AM   #784
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:07 AM   #785
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You were doing so well up until this. This is a grossly unfair mischaracterization.

I have seen plenty, and I mean plenty of left-wing sources decrying the lack of human rights in Middle Eastern countries. I would go so far as to say that liberal organizations have been leading the way as far as decrying human rights violations in Middle Eastern countries.

And yet because they don't go as far as labeling Muslims as a worldwide scourge, they are aiding Islamic Totalitarianism? That kind of over-inflated rhetoric serves no useful purpose other than furthering the us-vs-them divide in our political landscape. It's intellectually lazy and dishonest.
My quote does say "far-Left" does it not?

I'm talking about the revolutionary Left and their useful idiots (especially on college campuses and the web) that will work with anyone who seeks the destruction of Western society and capitalism. The same revolutionary Left that infects the green movement for the same aims. The Left that decries the imperial United States as the great oppressor and abuser of human rights. And the same radical Left that sympathized with communist causes during the Cold War and continues to romanticize Castro, Chavez, Mao and Che.

That Left.

Sorry for any confusion.
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Old 06-04-2011, 09:03 AM   #786
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Wow, if we can't have abortion in the GOP nom thread, can we keep Islamofascism and those who support it out of the Same Sex Marriage (default All Things Gay) Thread?




Damn activist judges always messin' with our threads.

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Old 06-04-2011, 10:37 AM   #787
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
My quote does say "far-Left" does it not?

I'm talking about the revolutionary Left and their useful idiots (especially on college campuses and the web) that will work with anyone who seeks the destruction of Western society and capitalism. The same revolutionary Left that infects the green movement for the same aims. The Left that decries the imperial United States as the great oppressor and abuser of human rights. And the same radical Left that sympathized with communist causes during the Cold War and continues to romanticize Castro, Chavez, Mao and Che.

That Left.

Sorry for any confusion.
Why are we even talking about that Left? That Left is irrelevant. Talk about liberals who actually vote and make policy and are represented in the government instead of your demonic boogeyman who want to destroy America.
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Old 06-04-2011, 11:21 AM   #788
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To be free a society must have the power of self-determination. If same-sex marriage becomes the law democratically I'll recognize it. Intimidation and judicial activism (Vaughn Walker ) being the completely opposite approach.

we really have to vote on whether or not a minority is entitled to the same rights as us? should we really have had people vote on Brown vs. Board of Ed? should the good people of Alabama have been allowed to vote on whether or not black people could attend the state university?

as for Judge Walker, everyone with a pulse knows that Olsen/Boies utterly decimated the Prop 8 crowd by any reasonable legal standard. that's not an opinion, that is a fact. read any of the coverage of the case and you'll see what little the Prop 8 crowd was able to muster when it came to witnesses. in this situation, particularly, crying "judicial activism" is incredibly weak when this is precisely what a judge is supposed to do.

it is striking, however, that SSM does very well in the courts but not so well at the ballot box. it's a great example of how minority rights must be protected by the judiciary in a democracy, and also an example of the benefits of a representative democracy rather than a direct democracy.

the fact remains that i never got to vote on your marriage, so why should you be able to vote on mine?





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Now you'd think....you'd think... it would be the far-Right that would work with religious radicals and be sympathetic to their fights and causes. "Women as chattel, theocracy, kill the gays. Count us in !!" And that the Left... the Left... would shun those parts of the Muslim world that fail to observe gay rights, equality for women, free speech or secular democracy.

But it's just the opposite. It's the far-Left that gives aid to Islamic Totalitarianism. Why is that? Why is it that if a Christian speaks out about the lack of human rights in Muslim countries or if a conservative (Bill O'Reilly) states that "there is a Muslim problem in the world," it's those on the Left that walkout in protest or shout "Islamophobia!!" ?

except that it's not just the opposite and you've created a situation that's rhetorically beneficial but really not rooted in reality.

my guess is that i would argue that the best way to help gays in Iraq, for example -- who have vastly worst lives now than they did under Saddam -- is not to bomb and invade. believe it or not, most people on the Left like the idea of democracy and free speech and all that. we just disagree that you can bomb and invade countries to make them accept these things. it was Left win gay activists like Dan Choi -- the one who chained himself to the WH fence over DADT -- who was beaten by thugs in Moscow after they tried to hold a gay pride parade. so to characterize all of the Left as subservient to ideals of "multiculturalism" to the point where it trumps basic human rights isn't correct. look at, say, female genital mutilation in Africa. it was women's groups who brought this issue to right, and i didn't see anyone on the Left supporting the right of societies to slice out the genitalia of an 11-year old girl in the name of "multiculturalism."

and there are many gay organizations that seek to help gay refugees from African and Muslim countries get out of these countries and off to London, New York, or wherever. however, the government of the US seems to be not as sympathetic as it could be to these cases.





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The question isn't "are Christians speaking out about the persecution and murder of gays in Muslim countries." It's why are those on the Left (with exceptions) so afraid to?

i just don't see this as the situation, but i do know that there are some right wing gay people who think that the GOP could form an alliance, of sorts, with gay conservatives (they do exist!) on issues like this. believe it or not, there is a very, very strong libertarian impulse in the gay community that probably could be tapped into by the GOP, but right now, you're riding the nativist/Christianist tiger you rode in on, so until you leave that behind, it's not going to happen.

further, isn't marriage, for example, a very conservative thing? it seems to me that it isn't marriage or "traditional marriage" that's at stake at all -- or is even what people actually care about. if you thought marriage was so great, wouldn't you want everyone to get married? no, what's going on here is the darker, more reptilian side of conservatism that feels an idyllic past slipping away and an unfamiliar world taking root. we are in the midst of an enormous cultural shift, especially racially, and that's going to inevitably cause some panic. and SSM is really just one aspect of this. which ties into what i was saying about the phrase "i believe" earlier -- that's a statement of identity, not of evidence.




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You're quite right about that and that's exactly why I feel embarrassed about attitudes I had 10 years or so ago. They were hurtful. I still have a traditional view of marriage but I'm very careful how I present my arguments. I think they're defendable but I'm fine with those that disagree and respect those with an informed, albeit, opposite opinion


and i appreciate that.

though i still think your proposed gay ice cream flavor of "double banana nut crunch" was hilarious.
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Old 06-05-2011, 12:59 PM   #789
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INDY, I get the feeling that your main reservation with same-sex marriage is that many liberals support it.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:45 PM   #790
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INDY, I get the feeling that your main reservation with same-sex marriage is that many liberals support it.
You mean one can oppose same-sex marriage for reasons other than homophobia or hatred? I'd like to think that a pillar of Western civilization is a bit more solid than that however.

No, that's not the reason anymore than I oppose an ever growing, more expensive, more expansive, more impeding, more intrusive federal government... only because liberals support it.

But thanks anyway.
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Old 06-05-2011, 02:53 PM   #791
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No, that's not the reason anymore than I oppose an ever growing, more expensive, more expansive, more impeding, more intrusive federal government... only because liberals support it.


Okay, that was fucking hilarious. You weren't born on Jan. 20, 2009, right?
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Old 06-05-2011, 03:55 PM   #792
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You mean one can oppose same-sex marriage for reasons other than homophobia or hatred? I'd like to think that a pillar of Western civilization is a bit more solid than that however.

No, that's not the reason anymore than I oppose an ever growing, more expensive, more expansive, more impeding, more intrusive federal government... only because liberals support it.

But thanks anyway.
I just mean, every time we get into this discussion, you make it about liberals vs. conservatives and don't really talk about it. You want to make it about judicial activism or how the Left is painting a caricature of the Right or something.

And I did not say "only," I said your "main reservation."
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:22 PM   #793
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No, that's not the reason anymore than I oppose an ever growing, more expensive, more expansive, more impeding, more intrusive federal government...


The irony....
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Old 06-05-2011, 05:34 PM   #794
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No, that's not the reason anymore than I oppose an ever growing, more expensive, more expansive, more impeding, more intrusive federal government... only because liberals support it.
Well, now that I think about it, you're right... too many liberals did support these actions all through the Bush II administration.

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Old 06-05-2011, 07:15 PM   #795
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You mean one can oppose same-sex marriage for reasons other than homophobia or hatred? I'd like to think that a pillar of Western civilization is a bit more solid than that however.


will straight people stop getting married if gay people start to get married?

or is this pillar of Western civilization held up by a "no fags allowed" sign?
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