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Old 06-02-2011, 08:31 PM   #766
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The truth.

I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin.


So you also believe it teaches that eating shellfish and laying with wife during certain times of the month is a sin, correct?

Do you at least sleep on the couch and let her have the bed?

Where were all those Biblical examples where it taught that a man and wife were the best parents? Still can't find them?

What does it say about false teachings?
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Old 06-02-2011, 08:38 PM   #767
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The truth.

I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin.




pretty sure the Bible teaches that smugness is a sin as well.
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Old 06-02-2011, 09:55 PM   #768
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what's that? i'm sorry, can't hear you. i'm in a hotel and a straight guy is making a maid perform oral sex on him next door and she's screaming so it's really loud.

he seems pretty proud of himself, though.
Man oh man, how many French socialists are in D.C. this month?
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:06 PM   #769
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Man oh man, how many French socialists are in D.C. this month?


i can't tell, there's always so many, but all the rapey ones are straight and proud of it.
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:09 PM   #770
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The truth.

I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin.


Fortunately, we live in a country where belief in the Bible is not compulsory to good citizenship. Unfortunately, also no longer compulsory is a meager pittance of respect for the beliefs of those citizens who do.

back at ya
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Old 06-02-2011, 10:18 PM   #771
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so i should respect those who claim their religion teaches them to view others as less than human?

i respect someone's right to have silly, self-serving beliefs, but there is no need to respect the belief itself, especially when it does active harm to other people.

also, when people talk about having a "belief," they're really just asserting their identity upon a certain ideological spectrum. it has very little to do with actual thought or rational thinking, and is often followed by little to no evidence and the demand for such is taken as a personal attack.

i'm quite certain that's about 95% of the resistance to equality for gay people. people are trying to say, "i'm not gay nor do i want my kids to be so i don't believe in gay marriage."

and there you have it. the Bible is trolled out as a tool of justification for identity assertion, not much else.
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Old 06-03-2011, 01:24 AM   #772
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Fortunately, we live in a country where belief in the Bible is not compulsory to good citizenship. Unfortunately, also no longer compulsory is a meager pittance of respect for the beliefs of those citizens who do.

back at ya
Quite ironic coming from YOU...

But you and your new friend will make great bosom buddies, you have a lot in common; misguided info and very little ability to engage.
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Old 06-03-2011, 08:03 AM   #773
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I believe the Bible teaches that homosexuality is a sin.
Doesn't the bible only mention male homosexuality?

Lesbians FTW!!!


Oh, let's follow the bible to the letter:

Dr Laura and Leviticus

I cannot wait to start smiting those that work on the Sabbath. If I hear one more lawn mower...


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Old 06-03-2011, 09:48 AM   #774
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Doesn't the bible only mention male homosexuality?


no, it doesn't talk about homosexuality at all, at least as we know it.

there are people more educated than i in this matter, but really what it's saying is that straight men shouldn't rape underage male prostitutes or sodomize each other.

and you'd think the whole "Jesus Message" about doing unto others as you'd have done unto you would trump all of this nonsense, but i guess some people just need easily identified enemies to denigrate in order to make themselves feel better.

but none of this has anything at all to do with the civil rights rights of people living in a secular democracy.

all gay people are asking for is to be able to sit at the lunch counter as well.
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Old 06-03-2011, 10:06 AM   #775
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but none of this has anything at all to do with the civil rights rights of people living in a secular democracy.
Wait, what?
Does congress know about this?



I wish Libertarians were concerned about the individual rights of consenting adults.

Wait, what?
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:59 AM   #776
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I wish Libertarians were concerned about the individual rights of consenting adults.


well, straight men have never been terribly concerned about consent to begin with ...
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:06 PM   #777
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so i should respect those who claim their religion teaches them to view others as less than human?

i respect someone's right to have silly, self-serving beliefs, but there is no need to respect the belief itself, especially when it does active harm to other people.

also, when people talk about having a "belief," they're really just asserting their identity upon a certain ideological spectrum. it has very little to do with actual thought or rational thinking, and is often followed by little to no evidence and the demand for such is taken as a personal attack.

i'm quite certain that's about 95% of the resistance to equality for gay people. people are trying to say, "i'm not gay nor do i want my kids to be so i don't believe in gay marriage."

and there you have it. the Bible is trolled out as a tool of justification for identity assertion, not much else.
For someone who scoffs at any notion of a "gay agenda," I must say you're quite the peddler of "anti-gay agenda" theories.

I respect that we have 180 degree different views of this. I don't deny a long history of homosexual persecution and discrimination. And I'll admit to being embarrassed by attitudes I once held and can still hear today. But the vast majority of Christians do not see gays as any less human as other "sinners." The vast majority of Christians recognize gays as deserving of all human rights.
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:08 PM   #778
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all gay people are asking for is to be able to sit at the lunch counter as well.
As we've discussed before this is a terribly weak analogy given the economic status of gays in 2011 vs that of blacks pre-civil rights era.

I'm gonna call you on it everytime.
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:22 PM   #779
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The vast majority of Christians recognize gays as deserving of all human rights.

such as the right to not be fired for being gay and the right to get married to the person of your choice? if so, bravo. and you may be right -- presently, the majority of Americans believe in same-sex marriage, and the number climbs every year. many of them are presumably Christian. and the movement among Catholics, in particular, on this issue is striking.

i will ask -- are Christians speaking out about the persecution and murder of gays in Muslim countries, or are there only safety concerns with Jewish settlers on the West Bank?



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As we've discussed before this is a terribly weak analogy given the economic status of gays in 2011 vs that of blacks pre-civil rights era.

I'm gonna call you on it everytime.

and i'm gonna call you on the fact that gays only look rich because coming out requires a level of security, economic and emotional, that isn't available to gay people of lower socioeconomic status. it can be incredibly difficult to come out if you are black or Latino, hence the "down-low" phenomenon. and saying, essentially, "look at you gay male couples in your early 50s with your multiple degrees and six-figure incomes and cottage in Provincetown and disposable income, how oppressed are you?" tells us that it's really only those types of people are truly able to live fully out and open lives. it's much, much more difficult in, say, rural Indiana or Mississippi than in the DC suburbs or the Bay Area.

it is not a perfect analogy, at all, but there is something to "jumping the broom" -- one of the rights denied to slaves was the right to get married. and while racial, Jim Crow-style oppression is very different from homophobia (though "separate but equal" absolutely applies) generally speaking, black people in the south didn't kill themselves because they were black. they weren't rejected by their parents and churches and communities. they didn't live secret black lives. blacks were lynched by whites, certainly, and gays are bashed to death every weekend by straights in cities across the country.

so these are very different things. i don't think straight people quite understand the psychological trauma that occurs in the early stages of coming out. i've never really talked about my family in here, and i'm not going to now, but i will say that it was much, much, much harder than i ever imagined it would be. it's so subtle and psychological, and there's a reason why drug abuse, alcoholism, and depression are rampant in the gay community. but i do think that comparing one's oppression to the other is never going to work, unless there's some humor and mutual acknowledgement of the other's struggles involved. so, i'll let someone who is black and gay talk about it:

YouTube - ‪Wanda Sykes: I'ma Be Me - Gay vs. Black (HBO)‬‏
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Old 06-03-2011, 09:05 PM   #780
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such as the right to not be fired for being gay and the right to get married to the person of your choice? if so, bravo. and you may be right -- presently, the majority of Americans believe in same-sex marriage, and the number climbs every year. many of them are presumably Christian. and the movement among Catholics, in particular, on this issue is striking.
To be free a society must have the power of self-determination. If same-sex marriage becomes the law democratically I'll recognize it. Intimidation and judicial activism (Vaughn Walker ) being the completely opposite approach.

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i will ask -- are Christians speaking out about the persecution and murder of gays in Muslim countries, or are there only safety concerns with Jewish settlers on the West Bank?
Here's what drives me crazy and it involves our discussion on the barbed wire thread. Lets take the narrative that conservatives and fundamental Christians (the American Taliban if you will) are bigoted, misogynistic and think gays are less than human. And that liberals stand for free speech, human rights and equality.
That's the FYM narrative anyway.

Now you'd think....you'd think... it would be the far-Right that would work with religious radicals and be sympathetic to their fights and causes. "Women as chattel, theocracy, kill the gays. Count us in !!" And that the Left... the Left... would shun those parts of the Muslim world that fail to observe gay rights, equality for women, free speech or secular democracy.

But it's just the opposite. It's the far-Left that gives aid to Islamic Totalitarianism. Why is that? Why is it that if a Christian speaks out about the lack of human rights in Muslim countries or if a conservative (Bill O'Reilly) states that "there is a Muslim problem in the world," it's those on the Left that walkout in protest or shout "Islamophobia!!" ??

The question isn't "are Christians speaking out about the persecution and murder of gays in Muslim countries." It's why are those on the Left (with exceptions) so afraid to?

I have a theory but I'd love to hear others first. C'mon Earnie Shavers... make my day.


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i don't think straight people quite understand the psychological trauma that occurs in the early stages of coming out. i've never really talked about my family in here, and i'm not going to now, but i will say that it was much, much, much harder than i ever imagined it would be. it's so subtle and psychological, and there's a reason why drug abuse, alcoholism, and depression are rampant in the gay community. but i do think that comparing one's oppression to the other is never going to work, unless there's some humor and mutual acknowledgement of the other's struggles involved. so, i'll let someone who is black and gay talk about it:
You're quite right about that and that's exactly why I feel embarrassed about attitudes I had 10 years or so ago. They were hurtful. I still have a traditional view of marriage but I'm very careful how I present my arguments. I think they're defendable but I'm fine with those that disagree and respect those with an informed, albeit, opposite opinion
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