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Old 03-23-2011, 02:33 PM   #631
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i'd be willing to bet, though, that Victoria Jackson is worried that "Glee" is going to turn kids gay. that's what virtually *all* of NOM's anti-gay ads are about, the idea of "schools teaching about gay marriage" -- it's when those television ads hit, ads of small children and their parents that play on whatever primal fear parents have about having a gay child, that the polling starts to shift just enough so that you get anti-gay victories in CA and ME.

anyway, as for "Glee," my assessments of it's quality change not just from week to week, but literally from commercial to commercial. there are times when it's inspired, and then there are times when it's an incoherent heap of shit inhabited by characters who have random motivations assigned to them. i do think, however, that it handles it's gay subject matter with a much lighter foot than many other shows, and while Kurt is a walking mass of stereotypes, he's wonderfully played, the bullying episodes were very real, and he and his dad have some of the best scenes on television. the "sex talk" was genuinely moving.

and you're right about a worldview. only a gay man like Ryan Murphy would have the hard won insight to script a speech like this:

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"When you're intimate with someone in that way, you gotta know that you're exposing yourself. You're never gonna be more vulnerable, and that scares the hell out of a lot of guys ... With two guys you've got two people who think that sex is just sex. It's gonna be easier to come by and once you start, you aren't gonna want to stop. You gotta know that it means something. It's doing something to you, to your heart, to your self-esteem, even though it feels like you're just having fun...When you're ready, I want you to be able to do everything. But when you're ready, I want you to use it as a way to connect to another person. Don't throw yourself around like you don't matter, because you matter."
not only does this tie into notions of sexuality that we were discussing in the other thread, but more importantly, this is something gay kids never hear. and it's the most important message of all, and it is directly tied into not just this thread, and not just the sky-high rates of suicide and substance abuse among gay kids, but the entire same-sex marriage movement: you are not inferior, a mistake, or a choice; you are as worthy as anyone else; above all, you matter.
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Old 03-23-2011, 02:54 PM   #632
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i'd be willing to bet, though, that Victoria Jackson is worried that "Glee" is going to turn kids gay.
Sure. Anyone who doesn't like what "the other side" watches is going to come out railing against anything they see as winning hearts and minds. I just thought it unfortunate that Khanada politicized one side of the aisle, when the reality is, it's simply part of the political discourse now, on both sides.

And for the record, Victoria Jackson can join Jon Voight in the "I'm conservative and bat-sh*t crazy" hall of fame. (I find it hilarious, by the way, that I'm writing a response to this while a Michelle Bachman ad runs at the top of the page. Hilarious and terrifying.)

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anyway, as for "Glee," my assessments of it's quality change not just from week to week, but literally from commercial to commercial. there are times when it's inspired, and then there are times when it's an incoherent heap of shit inhabited by characters who have random motivations assigned to them.
You and I agree here. I've grown tired of the "everyone sitting in class while someone sings the requisite slow acoustic song and the camera dollies and pans around their faces" moment in every episode. It feels a little like a one-trick pony. The musical numbers, however, are fantastic, and I think more than anything has led to the show being structured now like a bunch of ready-made YouTube moments with some drama thrown in.

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i do think, however, that it handles it's gay subject matter with a much lighter foot than many other shows, and while Kurt is a walking mass of stereotypes, he's wonderfully played, the bullying episodes were very real, and he and his dad have some of the best scenes on television.
Agree. I'm kind of curious how "Glee" and "Modern Family" are received within the gay community. While both shows are still trading in stereotypes and archetypes (like most TV), they've certainly moved the ball down the field in terms of presenting gay characters on TV we've never seen before. (Though I still think Jack on "Dawson's Creek" was more trend-setting, since he wasn't the walking mass of stereotypes.)
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:32 PM   #633
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I think the Kurt and his Dad moments are the best part of that show, they should focus more on that and not Gwyneth Paltrow, etc. It's not the show it used to be-too gimmicky. I don't see how people could be worried about their kids and Glee, since it's not a show for kids. If I had a kid they'd have to be an older teen to watch it. I do think it would be a good show for parents and teens to watch together.

And Dawson's Creek rules-no musical numbers but it still wins, old school style.
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Old 03-23-2011, 06:39 PM   #634
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And Dawson's Creek rules-no musical numbers but it still wins, old school style.
90s teen dramas! High-five!
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Old 03-23-2011, 07:43 PM   #635
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i guess should've clarified, i meant sitcoms and such, not news/news commentary shows.
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Old 03-24-2011, 10:42 AM   #636
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Agree. I'm kind of curious how "Glee" and "Modern Family" are received within the gay community. While both shows are still trading in stereotypes and archetypes (like most TV), they've certainly moved the ball down the field in terms of presenting gay characters on TV we've never seen before. (Though I still think Jack on "Dawson's Creek" was more trend-setting, since he wasn't the walking mass of stereotypes.)

well, i can only really speak for myself, but i think my opinions are pretty mainstream gay. both shows are well received. you can go into many bars that have video channels -- there's a whole subculture of dance-oriented pop and, like, Britney b-sides and mid-period George Michael that's played on video monitors in gay bars -- and you'll see clips from "Glee" played amongst your more typical selections. while Kurt is awash in stereotypes, they are played with love. i'll never forget in the first season when Kristen Chenoworth sang "maybe this time" from Cabaret, and absolutely killed it, and then the gag after such a big, emotional song, was a cutaway of Kurt wiping a single tear from his eye. stereotypical? yes. but did i do the same thing at home and then burst out laughing because Kurt and i had the same reaction? yes. Kurt is also easily the most sympathetic character on the show, he gets the best scenes with his dad, and his love story arc with Blaine comes off as the most believable. it is TV, and most characters are quickly drawn and easily understood, but so long as they are drawn with affection and the distinction of laughing with, rather than laughing at, then there's usually no problems. Ryan Murphy being openly gay certainly helps it's cred, and as i pointed out earlier, some of the writing on gay topics shows an insight that you probably wouldn't get from most straight writers.

as for Modern Family, it's a critically acclaimed show, and with good reason. the writing is very, very sharp and it's a model of consistency (whereas "Glee" is known for it's inconsistency). sure, Mitchell and Cameron are stereotypes, but they are no more stereotypes than Phil and Claire or Gloria (my favorite character). it's all comedy, and what's remarkable about Modern Family is how fairly Mitchell and Cam are treated. situations are contrived in order to showcase their easily identifiable (and mockable) traits just like anyone else, and within the world of the show, they are absolute equals to any other member of the family. their love for one another is never questioned; their status as full, and loved, family members is never questioned; and their status as loving parents is never questioned. as Kurt's dad might say, they matter.
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Old 03-24-2011, 04:30 PM   #637
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as for Modern Family, it's a critically acclaimed show, and with good reason. the writing is very, very sharp and it's a model of consistency (whereas "Glee" is known for it's inconsistency). sure, Mitchell and Cameron are stereotypes, but they are no more stereotypes than Phil and Claire or Gloria (my favorite character). it's all comedy, and what's remarkable about Modern Family is how fairly Mitchell and Cam are treated. situations are contrived in order to showcase their easily identifiable (and mockable) traits just like anyone else, and within the world of the show, they are absolute equals to any other member of the family. their love for one another is never questioned; their status as full, and loved, family members is never questioned; and their status as loving parents is never questioned. as Kurt's dad might say, they matter.
This reminds me of an article I was reading the other day about Community and about Donald Glover, in relation to how he's not a stereotypical black character in any way.

I should start watching Modern Family.
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Old 03-24-2011, 07:44 PM   #638
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This reminds me of an article I was reading the other day about Community and about Donald Glover, in relation to how he's not a stereotypical black character in any way.

I should start watching Modern Family.
ha, i was just thinking about that too when i was watching it the other day.

and yes you should.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:36 PM   #639
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no, really guys, Springsteen aside, isn't it HILARIOUS that someone would use Adam and Eve as a reference point for the ideal family when they gave birth to one son who murdered the other?

he'd have been much better of with Amanda and Eve.


Please explain why a mom and dad are not the ideal family.

Please explain why the the destruction of this family unit has been a positive event for this generation.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:37 PM   #640
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Please explain why a mom and dad are not the ideal family.

Please explain why the the destruction of this family unit has been a positive event for this generation.
These are not the points we're making and you know it.

Troll.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:47 PM   #641
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These are not the points we're making and you know it.

Troll.


I know.

The "troll" slam is familiar to me.


I thought I was on topic with my reply.
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:56 PM   #642
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Please explain why a mom and dad are not the ideal family.

Please explain why the the destruction of this family unit has been a positive event for this generation.


1. no one is saying it isn't. we are saying that there's more than one way to be an ideal, and that we should judge families by the people who are in them, rather than the fact of their opposing genitalia. i think you'd rather be raised by two good gay parents rather than two abusive straight parents, yes?

2. firstly, the "destruction" of this family unit has absolutely NOTHING to do with gay people -- if you think families are so important, why are you trying to prevent gay people from starting them? but what IS a positive even for this generation is realizing that families come in many shapes and sizes, and that it's the quality of the participants that counts. there are "family units" that are this "ideal" that are horrible and abusive, and there are families that are nontraditional that are loving and supportive.



now, please, as i've done for you, do me the favor of answering the following questions:

1. would you rather be raised by two good gay parents rather than two abusive straight parents?
2. can a non-traditional family (grandparents, aunts/uncles, much older siblings) produce happy, healthy children?
3. can traditional families (mom/dad) produce unhappy, unhealthy children?
4. how does two gay people getting married "destroy" mother/father households?



don't be cute. don't be coy. answer direct questions posed to you. please.
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:08 PM   #643
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Please explain why a mom and dad are not the ideal family.

Please explain why the the destruction of this family unit has been a positive event for this generation.
When you don't answer questions asked of you and won't explain your position beyond the introductory sentence, why should you expect others to explain theirs?
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:10 PM   #644
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1. no one is saying it isn't. we are saying that there's more than one way to be an ideal, and that we should judge families by the people who are in them, rather than the fact of their opposing genitalia. i think you'd rather be raised by two good gay parents rather than two abusive straight parents, yes?

2. firstly, the "destruction" of this family unit has absolutely NOTHING to do with gay people -- if you think families are so important, why are you trying to prevent gay people from starting them? but what IS a positive even for this generation is realizing that families come in many shapes and sizes, and that it's the quality of the participants that counts. there are "family units" that are this "ideal" that are horrible and abusive, and there are families that are nontraditional that are loving and supportive.
Well said.
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Old 03-24-2011, 09:12 PM   #645
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My reply was blocked by this:

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 1 characters.
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