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Old 01-12-2010, 10:01 PM   #31
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This is a strawman non-argument.

What you've effectively been advocating by your lack of argument is that the Left abandon centuries of established logic and reason necessary to formulate coherent debate, and to just let the Right make up whatever they want along the way that we must respect by some kind of ideological entitlement. That is, while the Left must produce objective data to back up their arguments, all the Right has to do is say anything at all and demand that it be taken as "Truth" without challenge; otherwise, of course, there's some sinister "leftist agenda" out there.

I'm very, very sorry, but it's logic, reason, and coherent argumentation that separates Western Civilization from arbitrary barbarism. There's no "leftist cabal" that's holding conservatism back; it's the incoherent babble coming from the mouths of conservatives themselves that's holding them back.
Western tradition and the First Amendment certainly guarantee that you can babble ad infinitum to your heart's content, but there is no way in hell I have to accept that nonsense.

If you want the "Conservative Worldview" to be legitimate, then--for the love of God--start making sense.
You realize the notion that marriage is between a male and a female, a bride and groom, a husband and wife... makes, and has for some time, perfect sense to a great many people.

Above you mention "logic, reason, and coherent argumentation." All certainly commendable attributes for intelligent thought but they can still lead one to the wrong conclusion without the one thing you didn't, and can't, mention.

Wisdom. It's what separates prudent change from radical change.

It occurs to me that the onus of debate falls on you to convince me that redefining marriage is a prudent rather than a radical change. Not on me to defend an institution that has been a pillar of Western civilization.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:11 PM   #32
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Wisdom. It's what separates prudent change from radical change. It occurs to me that the onus of debate falls on you to convince me that redefining marriage is a prudent rather than a radical change.
I would think that observing societies where gay marriage is legalized and has been so for a number of years would be helpful in getting you to see that the sky hasn't fallen in the meantime, that our straight couples are still bearing children, and that hetero marriage has been impacted in no discernible way.

But even this argument fails because we are told that it will take "two generations" or some such before we can make conclusions. So your gay citizens better sit back and chillax for 50+ years, maybe then we can revisit this. Of course then we'll be on to a different argument.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:18 PM   #33
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Of course then we'll be on to a different argument.
Ahhhh, right. Gays aren't the only ones knocking on the castle gate of marriage with the password of "tolerance" are they?
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:21 PM   #34
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We have our cutesy one-liners and you have your "Racist, Sexist, Anti-Gay, Born-Again Bigot Go Away" chants.
Call it even.

You mean like the "Gay is the new black" argument for same-sex marriage which, as you know, is largely rejected by African-Americans.
A cutesy non-argument.

Next...

Quote:
Tolerance doesn't mean checking one's beliefs at the door and condoning every practice, idea, trend, style
or new "right" that germinates in a free society. It does sometimes mean finding a compromise -- coexisting as it were. I have tried to do that.
An "appeal to tradition" logical fallacy.

Next...

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And if cutesy one-liners is seen as bullying then what are you gonna call the Right when we are forced to unveil our Shock&awe/logic&reason/can't-be-disputed/final-word/checkmate/rip-your-heart-out-and-show-it-to-you/pickup-your-toys-and-go-home Conservative Argument Against Same-Sex Marriage?
And nonsense.

The entire summation of the right-wing case against gay rights.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:30 PM   #35
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Above you mention "logic, reason, and coherent argumentation." All certainly commendable attributes for intelligent thought but they can still lead one to the wrong conclusion without the one thing you didn't, and can't, mention.

Wisdom. It's what separates prudent change from radical change.
Wisdom. Indeed.

Quote:
Over the past decade or so, divorce has gradually become more uncommon in the United States. Since 2003, however, the decline in divorce rates has been largely confined to states which have not passed a state constitutional ban on gay marriage. These states saw their divorce rates decrease by an average of 8 percent between 2003 and 2008. States which had passed a same-sex marriage ban as of January 1, 2008, however, saw their divorce rates rise by about 1 percent over the same period.

...

As is somewhat visually apparent, those states which have tended to take more liberal policies toward gay marriage have tended also to have larger declines in their divorce rates. In Massachusetts, which legalized gay marriage in 2004, the divorce rate has declined by 21 percent and is the lowest in the country by some margin. It is joined at the top of the list by Rhode Island and New Mexico, which do not perform same-sex marriages but idiosyncratically also have no statute or constitutional provision expressly forbidding them, as well as Maine, whose legislature approved same-sex marriage only to have it overturned (although not banned constitutionally) by its voters.

On the other hand, the seven states at the bottom of the chart all had constitutional prohibitions on same-sex marriage in place throughout 2008. The state which experienced the highest increase in its divorce rate over the period (Alaska, at 17.2 percent) also happens to be the first one to have altered its constitution to prohibit same-sex marriage, in 1998.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:35 PM   #36
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And some of us are thinking about kids deprived of a mother or a father. *shrug*


so go bang on about gay adoption. we all know marriage has nothing to do with this. *shrug* (one that's just as smug)

i'd be happy for you to tell me about how my married lesbian friends who are trying to get pregnant are doing horrible societal harm by depriving their future child of a live-in biological father.
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Old 01-12-2010, 10:46 PM   #37
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You realize the notion that marriage is between a male and a female, a bride and groom, a husband and wife... makes, and has for some time, perfect sense to a great many people.
"Perfect sense"--that is, a subjective emotion grounded in no factual, rational, nor observable evidence. That is, it made "perfect sense to a great many people" to put Jews in ghettos for centuries.

That's not how civil rights work.

Quote:
Above you mention "logic, reason, and coherent argumentation." All certainly commendable attributes for intelligent thought but they can still lead one to the wrong conclusion without the one thing you didn't, and can't, mention.

Wisdom. It's what separates prudent change from radical change.
Again, "wisdom" as (in this circumstance) a subjective emotion grounded in no factual, rational, nor observable evidence. That is...

Quote:
Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.
Such "wisdom" rings hollow when it cannot withstand scrutiny.

Quote:
It occurs to me that the onus of debate falls on you to convince me that redefining marriage is a prudent rather than a radical change. Not on me to defend an institution that has been a pillar of Western civilization.
It occurs to me that there have been numerous arguments made--including that by Theodore Olsen in the first post of this thread--as to why gays should be granted equality. And it equally occurs to me that not one single argument opponents have made in opposition to this notion has withstood scrutiny.

The best the Right can offer is an appeal to tradition and fear based on falsehoods. Can you see why anti-Semitism, racism, and misogyny all inevitably collapsed? Because none of this "traditional wisdom" that had made "perfect sense" to millennia of cultures could withstand the test of reason. And I do not know what the outcome of this specific challenge to Prop. 8 will be, as court cases of this nature can go one way or another, but the momentum of logic is in our favour.
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:28 PM   #38
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Cindy McCain NOH8 PHOTO: McCain Joins Project Protesting Prop 8
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:34 PM   #39
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Very interesting...

Now come on Obama!
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:44 PM   #40
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3 weeks after gay marriage law, NH takes up repeal

CONCORD, N.H. -- Three weeks after the state legalized gay marriage, opponents on Wednesday asked a House committee to repeal the law.

Gay marriage opponents want the law repealed and also want to change the state constitution to ban the unions.

In recent weeks, opponents began a grass-roots effort to challenge the law indirectly by suggesting New Hampshire's 400 House members and 24 senators aren't representative of the people's wishes. They point out that in the 31 states where voters have had a say, gay marriage has been rejected.
I admit to being torn on this one. We have a representative democracy which means we don't vote directly on everything. If same-sex marriage is to become law this is the "legitimate" route in my opinion. Yet as the Democrats in D.C. are learning, you can't govern against the will of the people either.
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:57 PM   #41
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you can't govern against the will of the people either.
Unless, you know, George Bush wants to stay in Iraq.
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:55 AM   #42
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why, look:

Cindy McCain Poses for NOH8 | News | Advocate.com

props to cindy mccain.
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:57 AM   #43
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why, look:

Cindy McCain Poses for NOH8 | News | Advocate.com

props to cindy mccain.
i guess now that he's no longer desperately running for president and ruled by the retarded right he can allow more common sense around him.


(nb: i'm aware we're talking cindy rather than john, but come on)
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:14 AM   #44
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why, look:

Cindy McCain Poses for NOH8 | News | Advocate.com

props to cindy mccain.


I agree

and there is this man



GOP Mayor Sanders and gay daughter Lisa talk to reporters after mayor's Prop 8 trial appearance | San Diego Gay & Lesbian News
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:50 AM   #45
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woops, sorry i missed Mrs. S's earlier post on the McCain women and repeated the same link.
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