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Old 05-02-2006, 02:05 PM   #106
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Hardly.
I'm not passing judgement on the women, just on the environment we all help to create that makes abortion an option.
This indulgent society allows us to let ourselves off the hook for what we do and what we fail to do in many other areas as well.
It also seems to stifle the "Forbidden Grief" that SOME women feel after abortion.


so pregnancy is punishment? is that how we are to view an unwanted pregnancy? a cross to bear? a scarlet letter?
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:27 PM   #107
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I don't think you meant to suggest that aborting a fetus should be about as emotional as clipping off a fingernail...OR how breaking a fingernail on an otherwise perfect set (which I'll admit can be devastating in certain circumstances lol) can be remotely compared to the emotional impact of having an abortion.

So I'm not really sure how your comment fits here.
No my comment was in reaction to your quick attempt to label my view as being purely created to be more palatable. You then went on to talk about developing finger, toes and nails, etc. And I've seen this done all the time in this debate, many of which have incorrect information, for I've seen people try and claim that fetuses are sucking their thumbs at 6 weeks. But fingernails don't make a child for nothing can survive without the womb at that stage of development. The point is the first trimester is just a devopment of cells. Do we bury the misscarried, do we hold funerals, do we call God an abortionist? No, because they're not human.

Miscarriages are hard, extremely, I've seen many deal with it, some even multiple ones. For there's a loss of hope.
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:37 PM   #108
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So I guess having the genetic makeup of humans isn't good enough to be human?
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:54 PM   #109
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So I guess having the genetic makeup of humans isn't good enough to be human?
So, I'm guessing you agree with Bush science and stem cell research is bad, because that clump of cells in a petri dish is a "human"?
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Old 05-02-2006, 02:58 PM   #110
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I do not agree with Bush's stance, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can dismiss the cells as not human. When you say they are not human, you are implying that are of some other species. From a scientific standpoint, they are genetically human and not any other species. It's not like we start out as fish and then hang a left turn up the evolutionary ladder at the end of the first trimester.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:02 PM   #111
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

But fingernails don't make a child for nothing can survive without the womb at that stage of development.
Who is ever really fully developed anyway?
Humans can't survive without the womb that is Mother Earth.
We are all dependent in one stage or another, sustained here in a delicate environment at the mercy of trees for instance to give us the oxygen we need to breathe.
ALL life hangs in the balance but that does not make us, living here attached by our earthly embilical cords, non-persons, (since we can't survive on our own)
any more than a baby inside of the safety of a mothers womb is a non-person. We all need protecting.
If we die, we all die as "human beings".
Respect life, respect your planet.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:03 PM   #112
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Originally posted by randhail
I do not agree with Bush's stance, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can dismiss the cells as not human. When you say they are not human, you are implying that are of some other species. From a scientific standpoint, they are genetically human and not any other species. It's not like we start out as fish and then hang a left turn up the evolutionary ladder at the end of the first trimester.


is there a difference between the status of being human, or having human qualities, and being a person?
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:07 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally posted by randhail
I do not agree with Bush's stance, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can dismiss the cells as not human. When you say they are not human, you are implying that are of some other species. From a scientific standpoint, they are genetically human and not any other species. It's not like we start out as fish and then hang a left turn up the evolutionary ladder at the end of the first trimester.
I never mean the cells aren't human cells, just that the clump of human cells doesn't make a human being yet.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:09 PM   #114
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Originally posted by BorderGirl


Who is ever really fully developed anyway?
Humans can't survive without the womb that is Mother Earth.
We are all dependent in one stage or another, sustained here in a delicate environment at the mercy of trees for instance to give us the oxygen we need to breathe.
ALL life hangs in the balance but that does not make us, living here attached by our earthly embilical cords, non-persons, (since we can't survive on our own)
any more than a baby inside of the safety of a mothers womb is a non-person. We all need protecting.
If we die, we all die as "human beings".
Respect life, respect your planet.
This is nice and all, but I'm not speaking in metaphors, I'm talking from a scientific standpoint.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:11 PM   #115
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Originally posted by Irvine511




is there a difference between the status of being human, or having human qualities, and being a person?
I believe that there is a difference, but it's where that difference occurs that gives me trouble. It's the million dollar question and I admit I don't have a good answer. If I come up with a list of criteria for being a full human "person" then there will almost certainly be situations that make my criteria look foolish - handicap, etc. I guess it becomes a matter of a person's belief of having a soul and when that soul becomes part of the flesh.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:45 PM   #116
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

The point is the first trimester is just a devopment of cells.
Every stage of life is just a development of cells and we could easily get caught up in semantics.

More to Irvine's point, at what stage should we recognize a person as an independent member of society?

I would say that occurs at a stage of development when the fetus can live and breathe independently from it's mother. But I don't think that should minimize the fetus' status or value as human life from the moment of conception.

As an aside, I also believe embryonic stem cell research is a worthwhile sacrifice of otherwise unwanted life that will never be realized.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:54 PM   #117
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Originally posted by randhail
So I guess having the genetic makeup of humans isn't good enough to be human?
OMG this again.

Should I go and take a photo of my incubator right here in the lab where I am growing maybe 15 cell lines including stem cells from the UMBILICUS which also have the genetic makeup of humans to show you that a pack of cells does not equal a child?

As for Border Girl, I'm not even going to dignify her "when did your heart become so hard" comment with a response.
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:56 PM   #118
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Originally posted by anitram
Should I go and take a photo of my incubator right here in the lab where I am growing maybe 15 cell lines including stem cells from the UMBILICUS which also have the genetic makeup of humans to show you that a pack of cells does not equal a child?


that incubator is no different than an orphanage!










(just trying to be slightly humorous)
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Old 05-02-2006, 03:58 PM   #119
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Every stage of life is just a development of cells and we could easily get caught up in semantics.

So you're still developing organs that you need that you didn't have the day you were born? Wow.
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Old 05-02-2006, 04:04 PM   #120
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Originally posted by anitram


OMG this again.

Should I go and take a photo of my incubator right here in the lab where I am growing maybe 15 cell lines including stem cells from the UMBILICUS which also have the genetic makeup of humans to show you that a pack of cells does not equal a child?

I'm well aware that a pack of cells does not equal a child. I understand the concepts of biology quite well thank you very much, but I appreciate your willingness to provide illustrations. I was addressing the embryo as a whole when I said they have the genetic makeup of a human.
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