The Christian Right and the Rise of American Fascism

[AliEnvy]

Of that 15% most occur during the first trimester, before the fetus can survive outside the womb. The fetus lacks all the functions necessary to make it human...

I realize it makes allowing abortion more palatable to dismiss the fetus as inhuman but consider that by the end of the first trimester,

"...nearly all of the organs and structures of the fetus are formed. They will continue to grow and develop until delivery. Fingers and toes have separated and hair and nails begin to grow. The genitals begin to take on their gender characteristics. Amniotic fluid begins to accumulate as the baby's kidneys begin to produce and excrete urine. The muscles in the intestinal walls begin to practice peristalsis - contractions within the intestines that digest food."

http://www.pregnancyguideonline.com/wk12.htm

 

[AliEnvy]

abortion thread alert!

Shhhh...I didn't get my 2 cents in before the last one was locked lol.

 

[BVS]

I realize it makes allowing abortion more palatable to dismiss the fetus as inhuman but consider that by the end of the first trimester,

I also realize how some can emotionalize such things as fingernails.

 

[AliEnvy]

I also realize how some can emotionalize such things as fingernails.

I don't think you meant to suggest that aborting a fetus should be about as emotional as clipping off a fingernail...OR how breaking a fingernail on an otherwise perfect set (which I'll admit can be devastating in certain circumstances lol) can be remotely compared to the emotional impact of having an abortion.

So I'm not really sure how your comment fits here.

 

[nbcrusader]

I also realize how some can emotionalize such things as fingernails.

No, I think AliEnvy may be highlighting the moral ambiguity needed to quickly approve of abortion as nothing more than a choice - without tackling the tougher issue of the life involved.

 

[BorderGirl]

A group of dividing cells does not a child make...

Human beings can only reproduce other human beings.

 

[AliEnvy]

No, I think AliEnvy may be highlighting the moral ambiguity needed to quickly approve of abortion as nothing more than a choice - without tackling the tougher issue of the life involved.

Yup. And to cut to the chase, I believe if more people who fall into the camp of pro-choice believed that every abortion was a tragic loss of life (not just potential life or almost life) that there would be better support systems for women (and men) in the whole realm of fertility and family planning and many, many more abortions could be avoided.

 

[BorderGirl]

Since there are no "children" involved, no, I don't agree with that part of your statement.

Abortions are personal choices made by the woman, for the woman and as such are not violent acts committed against her anymore than a tonsillectomy is.

How did your heart become so hard?

"Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being’s entitlement by virtue of his humanity."

 

[Irvine511]

 

[AliEnvy]

"Human rights are not a privilege conferred by government. They are every human being’s entitlement by virtue of his humanity."

Would be nice if that were true. Doesn't seem to work like that in the real world though. Doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to it, mind you, but that would require a whole lotta sacrifice most people are not ready to give.

 

[BorderGirl]

Would be nice if that were true. Doesn't seem to work like that in the real world though. Doesn't mean we shouldn't aspire to it, mind you, but that would require a whole lotta sacrifice most people are not ready to give.

Which one of those 'real worlds' isn't real?

All these things we care about depend, in the end, upon this: that we have the character to sustain our hopes, and aspirations. Surrender to love.

"Abortion can present itself as glittering liberty, a defiant way to cast off the shackles of injustice. That illusion lasts only until you realize who it was that you threw into the flames."

 

[Irvine511]

"Abortion can present itself as glittering liberty, a defiant way to cast off the shackles of injustice. That illusion lasts only until you realize who it was that you threw into the flames."

do you really think women who have abortions are light-hearted about it? i think the anti-choice crowd would get much further with their arguments if they'd show at least an ounce of sympathy and understanding for women who are faced with difficult decisions and are simply trying to do the best they can rather than either obsessing over theories of when life begins or invoking words like "killing" and "murder."

it isn't the having the abortion that's a form of freedom over one's body; it having the freedom to choose when one does and does not get pregnant.

 

[BorderGirl]

do you really think women who have abortions are light-hearted about it?

Hardly.
I'm not passing judgement on the women, just on the environment we all help to create that makes abortion an option.
This indulgent society allows us to let ourselves off the hook for what we do and what we fail to do in many other areas as well.
It also seems to stifle the "Forbidden Grief" that SOME women feel after abortion.

Here's a pretty good article wrtitten by a man whose wife asked him to attend a retreat on post traumatic stress after abortion.

Caution: may contain religious references.
w w w. rachelsvineyard.org/men/respect.

(paste and remove spaces)

 

[nbcrusader]

it isn't the having the abortion that's a form of freedom over one's body; it having the freedom to choose when one does and does not get pregnant.

Why do we stigmatize the single best choice women have to prevent pregnancy?

 

[Irvine511]

Why do we stigmatize the single best choice women have to prevent pregnancy?

often, it isn't a choice, whether rape or not. my brother works in a very rough inner-city chicago school. most of the girls who are pregnant at 14 or 15 have boyfriends in their early 20s.

and people are human. people mess up. people make mistakes. so can we agree on the need to make emergency contraception widely available, if not federally funded?

 

[Irvine511]

Hardly.
I'm not passing judgement on the women, just on the environment we all help to create that makes abortion an option.
This indulgent society allows us to let ourselves off the hook for what we do and what we fail to do in many other areas as well.
It also seems to stifle the "Forbidden Grief" that SOME women feel after abortion.

so pregnancy is punishment? is that how we are to view an unwanted pregnancy? a cross to bear? a scarlet letter?

 

[BVS]

I don't think you meant to suggest that aborting a fetus should be about as emotional as clipping off a fingernail...OR how breaking a fingernail on an otherwise perfect set (which I'll admit can be devastating in certain circumstances lol) can be remotely compared to the emotional impact of having an abortion.

So I'm not really sure how your comment fits here.

No my comment was in reaction to your quick attempt to label my view as being purely created to be more palatable. You then went on to talk about developing finger, toes and nails, etc. And I've seen this done all the time in this debate, many of which have incorrect information, for I've seen people try and claim that fetuses are sucking their thumbs at 6 weeks. But fingernails don't make a child for nothing can survive without the womb at that stage of development. The point is the first trimester is just a devopment of cells. Do we bury the misscarried, do we hold funerals, do we call God an abortionist? No, because they're not human.

Miscarriages are hard, extremely, I've seen many deal with it, some even multiple ones. For there's a loss of hope.

 

[randhail]

So I guess having the genetic makeup of humans isn't good enough to be human?

 

[BVS]

So I guess having the genetic makeup of humans isn't good enough to be human?

So, I'm guessing you agree with Bush science and stem cell research is bad, because that clump of cells in a petri dish is a "human"?

 

[randhail]

I do not agree with Bush's stance, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can dismiss the cells as not human. When you say they are not human, you are implying that are of some other species. From a scientific standpoint, they are genetically human and not any other species. It's not like we start out as fish and then hang a left turn up the evolutionary ladder at the end of the first trimester.

 

[BorderGirl]

But fingernails don't make a child for nothing can survive without the womb at that stage of development.

Who is ever really fully developed anyway?
Humans can't survive without the womb that is Mother Earth.
We are all dependent in one stage or another, sustained here in a delicate environment at the mercy of trees for instance to give us the oxygen we need to breathe.
ALL life hangs in the balance but that does not make us, living here attached by our earthly embilical cords, non-persons, (since we can't survive on our own)
any more than a baby inside of the safety of a mothers womb is a non-person. We all need protecting.
If we die, we all die as "human beings".
Respect life, respect your planet.

 

[Irvine511]

I do not agree with Bush's stance, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can dismiss the cells as not human. When you say they are not human, you are implying that are of some other species. From a scientific standpoint, they are genetically human and not any other species. It's not like we start out as fish and then hang a left turn up the evolutionary ladder at the end of the first trimester.

is there a difference between the status of being human, or having human qualities, and being a person?

 

[BVS]

I do not agree with Bush's stance, but that's not what I'm talking about. I don't understand how you can dismiss the cells as not human. When you say they are not human, you are implying that are of some other species. From a scientific standpoint, they are genetically human and not any other species. It's not like we start out as fish and then hang a left turn up the evolutionary ladder at the end of the first trimester.

I never mean the cells aren't human cells, just that the clump of human cells doesn't make a human being yet.

 

[BVS]

Who is ever really fully developed anyway?
Humans can't survive without the womb that is Mother Earth.
We are all dependent in one stage or another, sustained here in a delicate environment at the mercy of trees for instance to give us the oxygen we need to breathe.
ALL life hangs in the balance but that does not make us, living here attached by our earthly embilical cords, non-persons, (since we can't survive on our own)
any more than a baby inside of the safety of a mothers womb is a non-person. We all need protecting.
If we die, we all die as "human beings".
Respect life, respect your planet.

This is nice and all, but I'm not speaking in metaphors, I'm talking from a scientific standpoint.

 

[randhail]

is there a difference between the status of being human, or having human qualities, and being a person?

I believe that there is a difference, but it's where that difference occurs that gives me trouble. It's the million dollar question and I admit I don't have a good answer. If I come up with a list of criteria for being a full human "person" then there will almost certainly be situations that make my criteria look foolish - handicap, etc. I guess it becomes a matter of a person's belief of having a soul and when that soul becomes part of the flesh.

 

[AliEnvy]

The point is the first trimester is just a devopment of cells.

Every stage of life is just a development of cells and we could easily get caught up in semantics.

More to Irvine's point, at what stage should we recognize a person as an independent member of society?

I would say that occurs at a stage of development when the fetus can live and breathe independently from it's mother. But I don't think that should minimize the fetus' status or value as human life from the moment of conception.

As an aside, I also believe embryonic stem cell research is a worthwhile sacrifice of otherwise unwanted life that will never be realized.

 

[anitram]

So I guess having the genetic makeup of humans isn't good enough to be human?

OMG this again.

Should I go and take a photo of my incubator right here in the lab where I am growing maybe 15 cell lines including stem cells from the UMBILICUS which also have the genetic makeup of humans to show you that a pack of cells does not equal a child?

As for Border Girl, I'm not even going to dignify her "when did your heart become so hard" comment with a response.

 

[Irvine511]

Should I go and take a photo of my incubator right here in the lab where I am growing maybe 15 cell lines including stem cells from the UMBILICUS which also have the genetic makeup of humans to show you that a pack of cells does not equal a child?

that incubator is no different than an orphanage!










(just trying to be slightly humorous)

 

[BVS]

Every stage of life is just a development of cells and we could easily get caught up in semantics.

So you're still developing organs that you need that you didn't have the day you were born? Wow.

 

[randhail]

OMG this again.

Should I go and take a photo of my incubator right here in the lab where I am growing maybe 15 cell lines including stem cells from the UMBILICUS which also have the genetic makeup of humans to show you that a pack of cells does not equal a child?

I'm well aware that a pack of cells does not equal a child. I understand the concepts of biology quite well thank you very much, but I appreciate your willingness to provide illustrations. I was addressing the embryo as a whole when I said they have the genetic makeup of a human.