The Bush administration is busy preparing the *next* War On Terrorism - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-10-2002, 07:27 PM   #31
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,573
Local Time: 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sv:


3. Bombing a civilian population and flying away is cowardly. If I disliked a child, providing another child with a baseball bat to kill him would be a cowardly act. Either way, it's murder-for-hire.

There may very well have been anti-aircraft guns and missiles being fired from those villages, you know.
__________________

__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 01-10-2002, 08:26 PM   #32
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by brettig:
yup...but the US was guilty of turning something of a blind eye for longer than Britain, well after Hitler's truest territorial ambitions became clear. Chamberlain was naive, sure, but the memories of the 1st World War played on the minds of Europe to such and extent that they were reduced to trying to bargain with a madman.
True, we delayed our involvement much longer than the European Allied powers did. I don't deny that. And personally I feel that we should have become involved sooner than we did. But each of the Allied powers delayed their involvement until the Nazi Empire got closer and closer in its geographic aggression towards their own borders; remember that we were still an ocean away and were not directly threatened by Germany, save for a few random U-Boat sightings off the South Carolina and Florida Panhandle coasts.

It is also important to note the ethnic makeup of the U.S. in the 1930s and 1940s. Up through the mid-1800s, the overwhelming majority of immigrants to the U.S. were from Britain/Ireland/Scotland. However, during the late 1800s and early 1900s, the greatest concentration of American immigrants were from Germany, Italy and Greece. These groups quickly assimilated into American culture and economy and became valuable members of society, not just working the factories but also starting their own businesses and even serving in our military. Although I don't agree with it, there was a certain measure of sensitivity to these groups in not taking a side sooner than we did. Add to that the challenge of recovering from the Depression in the 1930s, the U.S. did have some legitimate concerns against rushing into battle on one side or the other sooner than we did.

And I agree with you regarding Nazi aggression on the sovereignty of the rest of Europe.

I will say those: the SOviet Union was largely responsible for the success of the Allied powers in Eastern Europe, and due to their numbers probably would have held off the Nazis in a one-on-one conflict. But on the other side of Europe, where France was practically overrun and Britain was being pounded, U.S. involvement was crucial. If we had indeed entered the conflict sooner than we did, those two nations (and many of their neighbors) probably wouldn't have suffered as much as they did. But I make that comment tonight in 60 years' hindsight, and it doesn't solve anything for me.

~U2Alabama
__________________

__________________
U2Bama is offline  
Old 01-10-2002, 08:31 PM   #33
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sv:
3. Bombing a civilian population and flying away is cowardly. If I disliked a child, providing another child with a baseball bat to kill him would be a cowardly act. Either way, it's murder-for-hire.
Bombing a pizza restaurant in Jerusalem and crashing passenger jets into office buildings is cowardly and immoral. Yes, even if they are "suicide bombers" (don't they get some paradise reward anyeay?).

~U2Alabama

__________________
U2Bama is offline  
Old 01-10-2002, 10:58 PM   #34
The Fly
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: wrapped around Bono's little finger
Posts: 196
Local Time: 08:42 PM
and now all of us poor smucks are gonna be paying for this war, plus we're going to be paying to "rebuild Afganistan," and still no trash Bin to be found. Now we're flying these imbeciles to Cuba at our expense for room and board. Cuba? That is absolutely stupid. Can you bet on any web site how long until everyone is fed up with this?
__________________
U2live is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 02:59 AM   #35
Paper Gods
Forum Administrator
 
KhanadaRhodes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: a vampire in the limousine
Posts: 60,609
Local Time: 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
And how can you say the problem with the Bush admin is morality, after the 8 years we just got through? 8 years of a wife-cheater who lied to a federal grand jury about it. 8 years of illegal campaign contributions. 8 years of scandal after scandal. 8 years of people dying left and right who were involved in those scandals.

Bush admin immoral? ha.

You've got to be friggin' kidding me.
can we leave this out of one political post, please? clinton's affairs had nothing to do with how he ran a country. mention something something bad he did government wise, and then i'll accept this as a valid counterpoint. till then, ciao!

------------------
when you stop taking chances, you'll stay where you sit. you won't live any longer, but it'll feel like it.
ME!
__________________
KhanadaRhodes is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 03:24 AM   #36
Refugee
 
Klodomir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Denmark
Posts: 1,198
Local Time: 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
The problem is morality? You think it's immoral to bomb a nation when you are at war with them?
Which nation are you at war with?
__________________
Klodomir is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 09:26 AM   #37
sv
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 229
Local Time: 08:42 PM
To 80sU2isBest - You are once again equating the thugs that have taken over Afghanistan with the Afghani peasants. They are completely separate entities, and the Afghani people did not vote these people in or support their decision to nurture Al-Queda.

It is absolutely and completely immoral to bomb Afghani civilians, even in pursuit of thugs. If your next door neighbor murdered a child, would the child's father have the right to blow up your house while trying to kill the murderer?

As for your facts, many estimates put the number of dead Afghani civilians (this is direct casualies from the bombing only) between 1000-4000. The indirect casualties caused by destruction of Afghanistan's infrastructure will be far greater - as will untreated disease, starvation, homelessness, mental health problems, etc. I would say a few thousand qualifies as "a whole bunch".

Whether Afghanistan is truly liberated remains to be seen. Certainly no one will miss the Taliban, but the likelihood of real representative democracy there seems remote. More likely, it will be a place where U.S. forces have military bases, and where the people are ruled by puppets of Western governments and their economic elite. And most importantly, where the natural resources (i.e. oil pipeline)are plundered by Western companies, which is probably the main reason for the takeover. As in other countries, the U.S. will support any government that enables us to take the oil profits.

I didn't say anything about Bush. I said the problem with U.S. government policy is morality. (That said, I do think Bush is worse than most) Nearly every U.S. President over the last 50 years has committed mass murder.

Speedracer, the anti-aircraft fire did not come from peasants, it came from Taliban soldirers. I certanly can't condemn anyone for defending themselves from a direct attack. There would have been no anti-aircraft fire if there were no bombers. And in fact our technological superiority made the bombing an extremely low-risk proposition from the bomber pilots' standpoint.

U2Bama - I completely agree that all forms of murdering civilians should be called terrorism and condemned. I don't support suicide bombers either.
__________________
sv is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 12:38 PM   #38
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,016
Local Time: 09:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Bush admin immoral? ha.

You've got to be friggin' kidding me.
well, the US it's foreign policies have always been immoral

so I guess it's not just Bush
I hope you feel better now

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it
__________________
Salome is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 02:50 PM   #39
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
hiphop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: in the jungle
Posts: 7,410
Local Time: 10:42 PM
As a p.s. to the WW2 theme lingering on in your brains:
Don´t forget the Soviet Union lost twenty millions of Soviet soldiers. I don´t want to count anything up, because one life is one life, but if America´s rotten education system tells you that the good U.S. was freeing Europe from the bad National Socialists, that´s not what the rest of the world knows. America was one power out of four allies.
And, on another note: without german capitalists (there are signs leading back to the Rothschilds, too, but I don´t want to stress any conspiracy theories) like Krupp and Thyssen, Hitler would never have been able to rise in 1933.
Capitalism still is the system that America builds its wealth on. No, I am not a stupid communist your capitalists had fear of. Just a free thinker. So, you are still building your wealth on a criminal system, because the most important thing are the bloody profits. Like they were for Krupp and Thyssen, who were right in their assumptions they would make their companies´ profits flourish, if they support Hitler.
It´s in the steel wheels too...
__________________
hiphop is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 04:34 PM   #40
Refugee
 
Danospano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,415
Local Time: 03:42 PM
I just wanted to remind everyone that criticizing the United States government doesn't mean you hate the country. I, like Doctor Gonzo and other critical minded people are presenting the facts in hopes that with enough support from the majority, we can reverse the direction of our leadership.

We all need to 1) Stop, take a deep breathe, 2) Look at every issue from our "opponents" perspective, and 3) Realize that every issue is never black and white.

Everytime anyone starts a thread about politics or government or war, it's so predictable what each and every person is going to say. Sometimes I wonder what's point of replying, because 80sU2isBest or AucthungBebe or someone else is going to rehash why they think Republicans are perfect in every way, shape or form.

The truth is usually scaring and almost always makes you feel uncomfortable. Criticizism of government is what rock music is all about. Complacency is our leadership is what Pop music is all about. Are we rock and roll people or are we those shallow, tutti-fruiti, pop fans?
__________________
Danospano is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 06:29 PM   #41
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,573
Local Time: 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by sv:
To 80sU2isBest - You are once again equating the thugs that have taken over Afghanistan with the Afghani peasants. They are completely separate entities, and the Afghani people did not vote these people in or support their decision to nurture Al-Queda.

It is absolutely and completely immoral to bomb Afghani civilians, even in pursuit of thugs. If your next door neighbor murdered a child, would the child's father have the right to blow up your house while trying to kill the murderer?

I don't like this analogy at all. You're comparing an internal, domestic conflict with a foreign conflict, and you're comparing the pursuit of one man with the pursuit of a powerful group of guerrillas that is friendly with the foreign government.

In your analogy, the FBI and local police have enough range and finesse that they could find the murderer without having to destroy anyone's house.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban military (and perhaps some al-Qaeda bases) had been operating from populated areas. Even if we had sent in ground troops, there would have been some civilian casualties.

The only way we could have gotten rid of al-Qaeda without shedding innocent blood would have been if the prophet Mohammed had risen from the dead and personally demanded that the Taliban get rid of al-Qaeda, and even that is questionable.
__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 07:57 PM   #42
sv
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 229
Local Time: 08:42 PM
Murder is murder - it simply doesn't matter if it's domestic or foreign. Civilians have a right to live, wherever they live. Period.

The powerful group of guerrillas was "friendly with the foreign government", as you say. Imposing the death penalty for the crime of guilt by association is a dangerous precedent, as events in India/Pakistan and Israel/Palestine are demonstrating.

But my main point is that the guerrillas are guilty and should be caught. But they DON'T represent the Afghani civilians - those are INNOCENT PEOPLE - even in democratic countries the leaders often don't do what the people want - the Taliban and Al-Queda certainly didn't consult the starving Afghani populace on whether to attack NYC.

The U.S. military has enough finesse and technological superiority that it could have routed the Taliban without bombing the cities. Yes it would have been slower. Yes there would have been American casualties - but they'd be deaths of soldiers who VOLUNTEERED to fly 8000 miles away to fight, as opposed to defenseless, suffering women and children just trying to survive the day.

And again I see that it's hard for many to equate civilian Afghanis with civilian Americans or Europeans.
__________________
sv is offline  
Old 01-11-2002, 08:34 PM   #43
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
speedracer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: MD
Posts: 7,573
Local Time: 03:42 PM
sv, do you really think the US could have avoided civilian casualties altogether by using ground troops exclusively?

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 01-11-2002).]
__________________
speedracer is offline  
Old 01-12-2002, 12:07 AM   #44
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
U2Bama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Gulf Coast State of Mine
Posts: 3,405
Local Time: 02:42 PM
Maybe he thinks we should train our military to conduct suicide missions from now on.
__________________
U2Bama is offline  
Old 01-12-2002, 09:54 AM   #45
Acrobat
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Montréal, Québec
Posts: 317
Local Time: 08:42 PM
I think this debate is getting a completely lost cause. While people are critisizing some of the USA's foreing policy, other people reply with the mindless "You hate us" "You are a traitor" blablabla stuff and cannot make any difference between critisizing and hate.

As one member said, this forum looks more commercial-pop kinda Britney Spears or the 'talk to my hand' brainless blonds as opposed to the "we can make a statement".

------------------
United Nations : www.un.org - UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund) : www.unicef.org
UNESCO (United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization) : www.unesco.org

Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional (EZLN) : www.ezln.org
"The one who governs with weapons is surely poor in ideas" - Marcos

Solidarités : <A HREF="http://www.solidarites.org

Parti" TARGET=_blank>www.solidarites.org

Parti</A> pour une Alternative Progressiste : www.parti-rap.org
__________________

__________________
Holy John is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:42 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com