elevated_u2_fan
Blue Crack Supplier
Irvine511 said:
but i thought you people invented irony?
Didn't you hear? Irony is dead... It followed Sarcasm a couple years ago...
Irvine511 said:
but i thought you people invented irony?
Justin24 said:Well the Iraqi people seem to be happy about this.
STING2 said:
This is not news.
coemgen said:So wait. Prince Harry is about to go to Iraq and the British pull out.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Sure it is, you just don't want it to be...
Irvine511 said:so ... other countries (and apparently Denmark is now about to do the same) are removing their small remaining forces in accordance to a timetable.
yet another blow to Bush. Iraq is over.
why would we send more troops precisely when our few allies are removing theirs?
Irvine511 said:and, goodness, most politicians seem to think that, yes, this is indeed very big news:
[q]Ally's Timing Is Awkward for Bush
By Jonathan Weisman and Peter Baker
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, February 22, 2007; A12
As the British announced the beginning of their departure from Iraq yesterday, President Bush's top foreign policy aide proclaimed it "basically a good-news story." Yet for an already besieged White House, the decision was doing a good job masquerading as a bad-news story.
What national security adviser Stephen J. Hadley meant was that the British believe they have made enough progress in southern Iraq to turn over more of their sector to Iraqi forces. To many back in Washington, though, what resonated was that Bush's main partner in Iraq is starting to get out just as the president is sending in more U.S. troops.
No matter the military merits, the British move, followed by a similar announcement by Denmark, roiled the political debate in Washington at perhaps the worst moment for the White House. Democrats seized on the news as evidence that Bush's international coalition is collapsing and that the United States is increasingly alone in a losing cause. Even some Republicans, and, in private, White House aides, agreed that the announcement sent an ill-timed message to the American public.
"What I'm worried about is that the American public will be quite perplexed by the president adding forces while our principal ally is subtracting forces," said Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.), a longtime war supporter who opposes Bush's troop increase. "That is the burden we are being left with here."
The notion that the British pullback actually signals success sounds like bad spin, added Sen. Arlen Specter (R-Pa.). "I think it's Alice in Wonderland looking through the looking glass," he said.
[...]
The news of Britain's partial withdrawal, though, swamped the funding debate for at least a day. "The timing of the British announcement is very unfortunate," said Nile Gardiner, a scholar at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "The British decision is going to be used as a political football by opponents of the president's Iraq plan."
Rep. Ray LaHood (R-Ill.) said the move will undercut Republicans in Congress trying to stave off attempts to limit what Bush can do in Iraq.
"It's probably not going to bode well for those of us who want to make a case against what Murtha and Pelosi plan for the supplemental," LaHood said. "It does not help."
Blair's announcement could also boost calls by Democrats and some Republicans for a serious change in Iraq policy -- not just in the number of troops fighting but also in what those troops should do. The British plan to withdraw 2,100 of 7,100 troops by summer's end and to redeploy the remainder away from combat toward more training of Iraqi troops and patrolling the Iranian border. That mirrors bipartisan Senate proposals for U.S. forces that are spelled out in two stalled nonbinding resolutions, including one co-sponsored by Warner.
"What the British are doing, and what we really need to do, is to tease out the cultural complexities of this thing," said Rep. Wayne T. Gilchrest (R-Md.). "On the one hand, they are signaling to all the Iraqi people, whatever sect they are -- Sunnis, Shias, Kurds -- they are not going to be an occupying force. That's a powerful signal to send. And the other signal is that they are passing the torch to the Iraqis, who are the only ones who can handle this ancient -- I'd say primitive -- sectarian dispute."
The White House argued that comparing the British situation in Basra and the U.S. position in Baghdad fundamentally distorts reality. The south, where the British have been in charge, has no Sunni insurgency and far less violence than Baghdad or Anbar. The coalition plan all along has been to pull out foreign troops when an area is ready for Iraqi control, the White House said.
"The fact that they have made some progress on the ground is going to enable them to move some of the forces out, and that's ultimately the kind of thing that we want to be able to see throughout Iraq," said White House press secretary Tony Snow. He said no consideration was given to asking the British to instead redeploy those departing troops to help their U.S. counterparts in Baghdad or Anbar.
Hadley, speaking to reporters in Brussels, where he was traveling, said he did not mean to suggest the British departure signals "an unalloyed picture of progress," but he rejected a more negative interpretation. "I didn't want people to think it reflected a lack of confidence by the British in the mission or a turning away from the mission," he said. "It is not."
Still, other administration officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity so they could talk candidly about political strategy, expressed frustration that the British decision will look bad to everyday Americans, and acknowledged that it will provide ammunition to domestic opponents.
"It's a brick in the hands of folks who want to take cheap shots," one official said. "But I think it's unfair."
[/q]
and, further, all the military bases but two are going to be handed over and another 1,500 will be gone by the end of the year.
this is, indeed, a withdrawal, and ironically at odds with the "surge" of 21,000 additional American troops.
STING2 said:
The British started out with 46,000 troops in Iraq. They have been gradually withdrawing troops for several years now. Nearly 40,000 British troops have been withdrawn over the course of the war, another 3,000 in 2007 can hardly be considered news when the withdrawal of the prior 40,000 troops was not.
Greenlight said:
Where do you get your information from? As far as I understand it the numbers of British troops has remained fairly constant at the 7000/8000 level since 2004. Obviously there was a huge number of British service personnel deployed at the start of the war in 2003 but the vast majority of these had left by the end of that year.
The numbers of British troops stationed in Iraq has been a very contentious issue and has featured on and off in the news since the war but perhaps it has only been reported in the national rather than international news That said, call me cynical but I'm sure that it's no coincidence that Labour has hyped the announcement because they are trailing in the polls at the moment (although there won't be another general election for a couple of years).
STING2 said:
Ok, lets look at the facts. There were 46,000 British troops in Iraq in March 2003. By July 2003 that number was down to 22,000. Over the next 3 years, 15,000 more British troops would gradually be withdrawn.
Were there any major news articles, to this degree, about the withdrawal of 24,000 British troops in 2003, and 5,000 more in each subsequent year?
Now that there is to be a withdrawal of 1,500 troops in southern Iraq over the next few weeks, its "news"? Why would that be "news" to this degree, when the withdrawal of nearly 40,000 British troops over the past 3 and a half years has not been?
Irvine511 said:yes because there's no difference in the troops needed to fight a war and the troops needed to occupy a single province.
it is very much news and it signals the final break with whatever "coalition" invaded in the first place. Britain is done. Denmark is done. South Korea is done. the allies one needs to combat Islamist terror aren't going to be there. yet another bullet fired in another foot of the GWOT with Bush at the trigger.
American soft power is a thing of the past, or at least until a new president free of the shackles of the worst foreign policy mistake since Vietnam can begin to undo the damage Bush has done -- not least of which has been the authorization of torture -- to the past 60 years of American credibility. a whole generation of British youth now thinks of the US as a bullying, blundering, hypocritical, myopic hyperpower drunk on it's own self-delusions.
this is much more of a political move on Blair's part, as he's resigned at this point to the fate that awaits the US after this debacle:
[q]"What all this means is not that Basra is how we want it to be," Mr. Blair said, "but it does mean that the next chapter in Basra's history can be written by Iraqis." The city, he said, "is still a difficult and dangerous place."[/q]
how many US soldiers must die before we arrive at this conclusion as well?
STING2 said:How many American's will have to die from Al Quada having a better location to operate freely from with no US troops to interfere with their operations?
anitram said:
You created this situation.
You and nobody else.
BonoVoxSupastar said:
But put it in context with Bush wanting a surge and it is news.
Context!!!
STING2 said:
Leaving Saddam in power was not an option. You have to look at things in a much broader context.
STING2 said:
how many Iraqi's, citizens of neighboring countries will have to die as a consequence of a pre-mature withdrawal of US forces? How many American's will have to die from Al Quada having a better location to operate freely from with no US troops to interfere with their operations? How many US troops will have to die if the United States does not secure and stabilize Iraq now and is forced to return years later to stop a worse threat? What will be the impact to the future security and stability of the region if the United States withdraws prematurely?
A pre-mature withdrawal has severe consequences and any one proposing such an idea should be able to acknowledge that and try to answer the above questions. But thats not happening. Withdrawal to so many of its supporters is the solution to everything, when it in fact solves nothing, and will eventually create the conditions for a far worse conflict that the United States will not be able to avoid. Fundamental US and global security concerns in the region have not changed, and are not going to at any time in the near future. Iraq is not Somalia with regard to the consequences of a pre-mature withdrawal.
Irvine511 said:
and the piss-poor invasion did not have to happen how it happened when it happened with so few on board and so many against and such manipulated intelligence and the specter of 9-11 used to drive fear into the hearts of a wounded american public and with the present fools in charge.
you have to look at things in a much broader context.
Irvine511 said:
gee, maybe you should have thought of these things before marching into Baghdad, maybe you should have spent a moment understanding how shattered Iraqi society was, maybe you should have paused to consider the differences between Sunnis and the Shia, maybe you should have used 500,000 troops to occupy, maybe you could have spent some time building an actual coalition like James Baker did in 1991, maybe you could have stop to think about just why no one wanted to go to Baghdad in 1991, maybe you could have gotten the UN on board, maybe you could have worked on world opinion, maybe you could not have legalized torutre, maybe you could have not destroyed the credibililty of the United States, maybe you could have let weapons inspectors do their job, maybe none of this had to happen how it happened but because of the 2004 election, it happened. and American soldiers have been your political pawns ever since.
if you had any belief in the necessity of the overthrow of Saddam, you'd be yelling and screaming at the manifest incompetency and grotesque manipulation of troops for political gain.
but, instead, you're just a partisan hack. no different from Cheney.