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Old 03-04-2004, 11:08 PM   #61
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave
For those of you who think men altered the Bible as the years went on, what do you make of the statement by Jesus in John 10:35 that 'the Sciptures cannot be altered'? It seems that would make Him a liar if they could...
Then I would tell you to read 2000 years of Biblical translations and then compare the Masoretic OT to the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Scriptures, as we know it, are nothing but alterations. I don't think that there has ever existed a "definitive" Biblical canon, simply due to the decentralized structure that Judaism has *always* had.

However, I believe that you have taken that passage completely out of context, not to mention that my Bible translates that passage as "the Scriptures cannot be set aside," which He almost says snidely against the Jews, whom He knows takes the Bible literally. Jesus is provoking "the Jews" (a translation I utterly hate, simply because it ignores the fact that there are multiple sects of Judaism at this time), who are calling Him "a man" and not the Messiah. In fact, this is an utterly puzzling passage, as it implies that all men are "God" and that Jesus is the only one daring enough to admit it.

I think it is passages like these that tend to confuse people royally.

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Old 03-04-2004, 11:10 PM   #62
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If God revealed himself in all of his capacity, do you think man would understand it?
I think this statement to me sums up my whole belief of the Bible. The story is told to us in a way that we as feeble little humans can understand, that's why it had to be written by men. When written by men their is going to be scientific and historical fallacy. I mean just look at something that happen last year and you'll read or hear 3 different versions of what happen, but the idea, the moral it's all the same. Think of the telephone game. I think people spend entirely too much time trying to prove that it can be word for word fact and then there are those that spend too much time trying to disprove. I believe one should question everything and I also believe faith is important too, but there is a blindness that comes with both sides.

I believe because I've studied and I've seen first hand the power of God.
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Old 03-04-2004, 11:13 PM   #63
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Originally posted by melon
So what if I believe in a God-created evolution rather than creationism? "God" is still central to the creation of the universe, in my belief system.
"God-created evolution" is an oxymoron in my ears, and, I believe, a dangerous compromise. But......that is the topic for yet another thread and I am having a hard enough time keeping up with just these 2 I started today
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Old 03-04-2004, 11:14 PM   #64
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[Q]One of the first things Constantine does, as Emperor, is start persecuting other Christians. The gnostic Christians are targeted, ... and other dualist Christians. Christians who don't have the Old Testament as part of their canon are targeted. The list of enemies goes on and on. There's a kind of internal purge of the church as one Emperor ruling one Empire tries to have this single church as part of the religious musculature of his vision of a renewed Rome. And it's with this theological vision in mind that Constantine not only helps the bishops to iron out a unitary policy of what a true Christian believes, but he also, interestingly, turns his attention to Jerusalem, and rebuilds Jerusalem just as a righteous King should do. But what Constantine does is take the city, which was something of a backwater, and he begins to build beautiful basilicas and architecturally ambitious projects in the city itself. The sacred space of the Temple mount he abandons. It's not reclaimable. And what he does is [to] religiously relocate the center of gravity of the city around the places where Christ had suffered, where he had been buried, or where he [had] been raised. So that in the great basilicas that he built, Constantine has a new Jerusalem, that's splendid and beautiful and... his reputation as an imperial architect resonates with great figures in biblical history like David and Solomon. In a sense, Constantine is a non-apocalyptic Messiah for the church....

The bishops are terribly grateful for this kind of imperial attention. It's not the western Middle Ages. The lines of power are unambiguous. Constantine is absolutely the source of authority. And there's no question about that. But the bishops are able to take advantage of Constantine's mood, and his curious intellectual interest in things like Christology, and the Trinity, and Church organization. They're able to have Bibles copied at public expense. They are finally able to have public Christian architecture and big basilicas. So there's a comfortable symbiotic relationship between the Empire and the Church. One that, in a sense, is what defines the cultural powerhouse of Europe and the west.[/Q]

Sounds like a REAL Power struggle ended when the Emporer began to decide what was right and wrong in Christianity.

Back to dinner..hehe
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Old 03-04-2004, 11:29 PM   #65
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave


"God-created evolution" is an oxymoron in my ears, and, I believe, a dangerous compromise. But......that is the topic for yet another thread and I am having a hard enough time keeping up with just these 2 I started today
So you have no problem with making the dinosaurs just a conspiracy theory, genetic impossibilities with Noah's Ark, and the fact that Cain had to sleep with his mother to procreate?
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Old 03-04-2004, 11:38 PM   #66
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


So you have no problem with making the dinosaurs just a conspiracy theory, genetic impossibilities with Noah's Ark, and the fact that Cain had to sleep with his mother to procreate?
Not sure I'm reading the first 2 statements right -

1. I do believe the dinosaurs existed, just not that they were around 2.4 billion years ago

2. Genetic impossibilities w/ Noah's ark? With God, all things are possible, so I'm not sure what you're calling impossible - something with the people, animals, both?

3. I think it's possible that Adam and Eve had more children than the Bible specifically names, and it's more likely that Cain ended up with one of his sisters as a wife. Still not an ideal pairing compared to today's standards, but how do you explain the initial beginnings of the human race without some close pairings regardless?

Again, I think this topic would be better suited for it's own thread...
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Old 03-04-2004, 11:51 PM   #67
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Ok I won't touch upon everything since you don't think it fits in this thread, but I'm trying to understand you right. So do you believe that the dinosaurs only lived for a few days?
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Old 03-05-2004, 12:20 AM   #68
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No I believe God created them when He created the animals, and they were around at least until the time of Job, as there is mention of a behemoth and leviathan in chapter 40. These can be interpreted as a variety of large creatures, but in the context of other animals being mentioned in chapters 38 and 39, I think they could very easily be dinosaurs. Why are they extinct or when they all finally died out is up for debate, but yes I do believe they existed
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Old 03-05-2004, 12:27 AM   #69
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave
No I believe God created them when He created the animals, and they were around at least until the time of Job, as there is mention of a behemoth and leviathan in chapter 40. These can be interpreted as a variety of large creatures, but in the context of other animals being mentioned in chapters 38 and 39, I think they could very easily be dinosaurs. Why are they extinct or when they all finally died out is up for debate, but yes I do believe they existed
Ok I'm just trying to get a grasp, so they existed the same time of man?
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Old 03-05-2004, 12:37 AM   #70
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From Job 40 (is this enough context Dread? ):

15 "Look at the behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail [2] sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
or trap him and pierce his nose?

Job 41
1 "Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down his tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through his nose
or pierce his jaw with a hook?
3 Will he keep begging you for mercy?
Will he speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will he make an agreement with you
for you to take him as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of him like a bird
or put him on a leash for your girls?
6 Will traders barter for him?
Will they divide him up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill his hide with harpoons
or his head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on him,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
the mere sight of him is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse him.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 "I will not fail to speak of his limbs,
his strength and his graceful form.
13 Who can strip off his outer coat?
Who would approach him with a bridle?
14 Who dares open the doors of his mouth,
ringed about with his fearsome teeth?
15 His back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 His snorting throws out flashes of light;
his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Firebrands stream from his mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from his nostrils
as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
21 His breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from his mouth.
22 Strength resides in his neck;
dismay goes before him.
23 The folds of his flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 His chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When he rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before his thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches him has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron he treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make him flee;
slingstones are like chaff to him.
29 A club seems to him but a piece of straw;
he laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 His undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 He makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 Behind him he leaves a glistening wake;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is his equal-
a creature without fear.
34 He looks down on all that are haughty;
he is king over all that are proud."


God says he created these things along with Job - He did create the animals before man in the order of creation, but it sounds like they existed together since God basically says people can't catch it...
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Old 03-05-2004, 01:07 AM   #71
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hm...I wonder what the Leviathan really is. We have a server called Leviathan and it is a beast!
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Old 03-05-2004, 01:10 AM   #72
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OK, I found this website that says Job is using the description of the Leviathan as a metaphor for Satan.

Quote:
Now this is actually a figure of Satan himself. From the context we would gather that. But nevertheless it is a literal animal that seems to have been living in that day.
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Old 03-05-2004, 03:26 AM   #73
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave
How many animals of each kind?

Wow, what a great site.

I just learned that Noah took dinosaurs on the ark with him.
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Old 03-05-2004, 06:03 AM   #74
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Q

If the bible is not gods word and only a fable could Timothy really predict the state of the world we are living in today..

Quote- 2 Tim chapter 3
But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

*end quote
In the bible it says a thousand years are like a day to God, and day can cover a period of time being God he can make a day as long as he wants a creative day could have been a thousand days if he chose... and as for the flood account Jesus even referred to Noah as a real person saying so as the days of Noah so will the sons of men be warning about that Noah preached that the end of the world would come with the flood.. but no one took no note.. just like it is today

Quote Math 24 v 36

36 “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming.
*end quote*

He is recorded there in the bible as a warning to us and an example of what happens to those who listen to God and what will happen to those who don't.. this is Gods way of not leaving us in the dark.. so that when the end does come.. well you can't say you didnt know.. it is written in the bible.. what people do with that information is up to them

In revelations John quoted this prophecy which I think is also quite interesting that also applies to our day.. and which he would have no knowledge of back in his day

*Quote revelation 11.v 18*
18 But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give [their] reward to your slaves the prophets and to the holy ones and to those fearing your name, the small and the great, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

*end quote*
It is only in this time of the 20th and 21st century the earth is being ruined the evidence is all around us if the bible is just an old book of fables how can it know so much about the world we live in today

Most ancient stories have believed that the world was flat right up until the 19th century.. yet it is described as sepherical and hanging on nothing in the bible in ancient times before men even travlled of the planet

Job 26 v7
He is stretching out the north over the empty place,
Hanging the earth upon nothing

Isaiah 40 22
There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gauze, who spreads them out like a tent in which to dwell,


its amazing what you find in the bible if you look for it
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Old 03-05-2004, 06:46 AM   #75
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I think that Biblical fundamentalists are grasping for straws. A "leviathan" is not a dinosaur. Man did not live with dinosaurs. Period.

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