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Old 03-04-2004, 09:35 PM   #31
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave
For Dread:

THE CANON AND EXTRA-CANONICAL WRITINGS

Do you give any credence to the above?
Sure,....except for the fact that it completely ignores the POLITICS behind the selection of the books.....

Paul's closest follower....not included?

The Romans....The Emporer basically came in and changed the course of the Church.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:36 PM   #32
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Another place where the numbers don't make sense: the Flood narrative. [/B]
You stole my next bullet!!!!
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:45 PM   #33
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I think the Bible is a record of man's perception of God. The OT shows direct influence of the Semitic perception of God, which influenced what I call "pre-Judaism." In essence, God is portrayed like all gods of the era: vengeful and possessive; reward and punishment. A sort of "if you do exactly what I say, I will bring you paradise" and "if you mess up, I will obliterate you and your family and everyone you know and curse everyone else's future generations..." I think that this form of "pre-Judaism" was likely monotheistic, but believed in the existence of other gods. Hence, I also think that the Genesis creation myths never intended to touch on the whole of creation, but, rather, the creation of the "chosen people." After all, if Adam and Eve, along with their children, Cain, Abel, and (later) Seth were all the people on the entire Earth, how could Cain marry someone else outside of the Garden? Now, folks, THAT is the ultimate contradiction of the Bible, according to existing interpretations: marrying someone that shouldn't exist. However, I believe that Cain marries a Moabite--hence, the Moabite was not part of the "chosen people" and was not part of the "Garden of Eden." The Garden, perhaps, is "Heaven," which would not be resident on Earth, and, up until Jesus' death and resurrection, tradition holds that heaven was sealed to everyone. Hence, "the Garden" that is "Heaven" is reopened, and, thus, when Adam and Eve are cast out of the Garden, they are thus sent to Earth, whose history is never addressed.

However, in addressing both the Garden of Eden and Heaven, I am crossing over into the other, more predominant influence of the OT: Zoroastrianism. After being taken over and exiled back into present-day Iraq (and ancient Sumer) for 300 years, Judaism, as we came to know it, was born. Zoroastrianism is where we got angels, Satan, the concept of a Messiah, the last Judgment, the dualism of good versus evil. And even the Pharisees...do you know where their name comes from? Parsee or Farsi...e.g., Persian. The Sadducees were the competing "purist" sect, while the Pharisees had Persian ideas and they hated each other.

Anyway, there are many links on this subject that are far more in-depth than I. This is a good one. It also shouldn't be a coincidence; no texts from before the exile have ever been found in existence, but comparing the 10th century Masoretic OT texts to the Dead Sea Scrolls--with the former long being considered the oldest existing texts before the latter was discovered and fully translated recently--not only is the canon different (it includes all the Catholic "apocryphal" texts and others), but even the texts have some notable differences.

But all this exploration is a result of the Catholic still within me, as, since Pope Pius XII, it has been widely encouraged to discover both the origin and original context of the Biblical texts, irrespective of any traditional interpretations, as to discover the context that it was written is to perhaps discover the true Word of God.

Just as I believe that God works through science, similar in the tradition of St. Thomas Aquinas, I do believe that God reveals Himself through the Bible--but, like science, it is not obvious. After all, the pursuit of knowledge is often more satisfying than actually having it. So, while my belief in God has not changed, my views on religion have. I think that God reveals Himself through multiple religions, like a bunch of puzzle pieces that have to be put together. But, as "love is the fulfillment of the law" (Romans 13:10), I am at peace as to where I know I must go, while I continue on my pursuit of knowledge. Religious tenets that run contrary to love--like homophobia, for instance--I do not view as being from God, but from man and our inherent prejudices.

Perhaps this is all unconventional, but I believe that this study has satisfied, for me, the philosophical contradictions of the Bible that permeate this conglomerate of texts.

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Old 03-04-2004, 09:46 PM   #34
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You stole my next bullet!!!!
what do YOU think about the Flood narrative?
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:49 PM   #35
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thank you melon. that was wonderful.
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Old 03-04-2004, 09:56 PM   #36
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"The Flood" story is a story that permeates many cultures' legends. It is likely a retelling of the disaster that created the present-day Black Sea roughly 8000 years ago. There is increasing evidence that the salty waters of the Mediterranean Sea breached through the Dardanelles and Bosporus to fill in a large area beneath the sea level, where there was a freshwater lake. It also appears that this was not a gradual rise; the breach and filling of the present-day Black Sea may have happened in a matter of days, adding as much as 500 feet of water to reach the current Black Sea level.

The beauty of the Black Sea is in its toxicity; at its lower levels, there is an "anoxic" layer that has absolutely no free oxygen in the water, and, hence, no living things and no decay. There is ample evidence that there was once a civilization living on a long-submerged shoreline.

Considering the details of the Flood story, along with the geographic region of the Black Sea, this is the likely origin of Noah's Ark. Not a worldwide flood, but a disaster that is even inconceivably large for today. Now shrink the size of the Earth down to their worldview, and perhaps understand why the disaster that created the Black Sea might be expounded to suggest that the entire world was flooded.

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Old 03-04-2004, 09:56 PM   #37
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What do you mean about the Flood numbers? And why do so many cultures have a flood story? If anything, I think the fact that morals are left out of some of the accounts gives even more credence to it actually happening.
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:03 PM   #38
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The bible, pure fairytale, just a more famous version of Harry Potter.

Not a very interesting story by the way.
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:04 PM   #39
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Originally posted by bonosloveslave
What do you mean about the Flood numbers? And why do so many cultures have a flood story? If anything, I think the fact that morals are left out of some of the accounts gives even more credence to it actually happening.
That's correct. A flood did happen, as I mentioned: the disaster that created the Black Sea. And what a disaster it was! Even if that happened today, we'd be utterly horrified, and I'm really quite intrigued by the fact that the event survived thousands of years of pre-history and oral tradition to make it into the Bible, albeit in mythic form.

But, come on, how can we take it literally? Do you know how many species there are? They certainly would not all have fit into one ark. And the fact that two of every animal would lead to such genetic inbreeding that they'd all have gone extinct? We know the answer to that question, because, in many cases, we've driven animal species to such endangered levels that there literally ARE only two of one species left, in some cases, and there is not enough genetic variation to maintain the species; hence, their eventual extinction is often a foregone conclusion.

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Old 03-04-2004, 10:12 PM   #40
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I guess you mean the mention of 7 in Genesis 7:2-3?

Genesis 6:19 “And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female”

Genesis 7:2-3 “You shall take with you seven each of every clean animal, a male and his female; two each of animals that are unclean, a male and his female; also seven each of birds of the air, male and female, to keep the species alive on the face of all the earth."
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:14 PM   #41
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but how is that really possible?
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:16 PM   #42
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but how is that really possible?
It isn't. Even seven of each animal isn't enough to have enough genetic variation--and would certainly not fit into an ark, according to the Biblically-listed dimensions. Some endangered African species are starting to become infertile, due to inbreeding, and, in these cases, there are about 100 left of them.

Not to mention the impossiblity of Noah going down to Australia to save all the marsupials that exist only in Australia.

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Old 03-04-2004, 10:18 PM   #43
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i honestly don't understand how people can seriously believe that it would be possible to keep every species on earth alive on an ark - regardless of the numbers of each, genetic variation, etc., etc., etc.. i just cannot comprehend it.
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:20 PM   #44
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How many animals of each kind?
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Old 03-04-2004, 10:21 PM   #45
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The ark was really as spaceship....

Think about it...it is code....look at the numbers and tell me it was not a spaceship.
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