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Old 01-28-2005, 12:52 PM   #61
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Dreadsox, I've looked up Mark 6:11 in other translations and none of them include the part about S and G. Is this another sign that the KJV is a bunch of crap?

Nowhere in the Bible is not letting someone in your home a sin.
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Old 01-28-2005, 12:58 PM   #62
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Originally posted by coemgen
Dreadsox, I've looked up Mark 6:11 in other translations and none of them include the part about S and G. Is this another sign that the KJV is a bunch of crap?

Nowhere in the Bible is not letting someone in your home a sin.
Careful.

2 John and 3 John provide guidelines on opening one's home to another.
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:13 PM   #63
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Interesting...I have found four with very little effort.

And please, do not put words into my mouth. The traditions of the land during the day required specific treatment of strangers visiting.

I guess if it is not in the Bible specifically laid out it does not count.
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:14 PM   #64
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Careful.

2 John and 3 John provide guidelines on opening one's home to another.
Or maybe it is in the Bible....lol
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:18 PM   #65
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This has nothing to do with the way we treat others:

25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:26 PM   #66
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What was the sin of Sodom?

A collection of classical Jewish texts
Compilation and commentary by Robert Kaiser
With an additional note from Arthur Waskow

Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders. Saying "God killed them because they were gay" is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject.

Consider the following texts:

*****

Your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.

Ezekiel 16:46-50

******

the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance...

Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5

*****

The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...

There were four judges in Sodom named Shakrai (Liar), Shakurai (Awful Liar), Zayyafi (Forger), and Mazle Dina (Perverter of Justice). Now if a man assaulted his neighbour's wife and bruised her, they would say to the husband, Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for thee. If one cut off the ear of his neighbour's ass, they would order, Give it to him until it grows again.

If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this "beneficial" medical service"...]

... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched him out...

If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized such coins, and refused toa accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his (denar)...

A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab's name: on account of the maiden (ribah).

Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a

*****

Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, 'In accord with their cry', but, 'according to her cry', referring in particular to the girl.

Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6

*****

R Menhama in the name of R Bibi: This is what the Sodomites had stipulated among themselves. They said, As to any wayfarer who comes here, we shall have sexual relations with him and take away his money.

Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 50:7

*****

Rabbi Ze era said: The men of Sodom were the wealthy men of prosperity, on account of the good and fruitful land whereon they dwelt... Rabbi Nathaniel said: The men of Sodom had no consideration for the honour of their Owner by not distributing food to the wayfarer and stranger, but they even fenced in all the trees on top above their fruit so that so that they should not be seized; not even by the bird of heaven... Rabbi Joshua... said: They appointed over themselves judges who were lying judges, and they oppressed every wayfarer and stranger who entered Sodom by their perverse judgment, and they sent them forth naked...

Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in Sodom saying: Everyone who strengthens the hand of the poor or the needy with a loaf of bread shall be burnt by fire. Peletith, daughter of Lot, was wedded to one of the magnates of Sodom. She saw a certain very poor man in the street of the city, and her soul was grieved on his account... Every day when she went out to draw water she put in her bucket all sorts of provisions from her home, and she fed that poor man. The men of Sodom said: How does this poor man live? When they ascertained the facts, they brought her forth to be burnt by fire. She said: Sovereign of all the worlds! maintain my right and my cause (at the hands of) the men of Sodom. And her cry ascended before the Throne of Glory. In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, said: I will now descend and I will see whether the men of Sodom have done according to the cry of this young woman, I will turn her foundation upwards, and the surface thereof shall be turned downwards.

Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer

*****

Nachmanides commenting on the verse "AND WE SHALL KNOW THEM".

Their intention was to stop people from coming among them, as our rabbis have said, for they thought that because of the excellence of their land... many will come there and they despised charity... they continued provoking and rebelling against Him with their ease and the oppression of the poor... In the opinion of our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was sealed because of this sin - i.e. they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy - since this sin represented their usual behaviour more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched Sodom in cruelty.

Nahmanides (Ramban) Commentary on Genesis, 13th century

****** For similar views see Numbers Rabbah 9:24 (midrash), the JPS Torah Commentary on Genesis by Nahum M. Sarna, page 135, note #5, and the 'Stone Edition of the Chumash' [better known as the Artscroll Chumash] by Mesorah publications, commentary on page 81.

So the next time someone tries to use Genesis as an excuse to justify homophobia, we can educate them by giving them these sources to read and consider.

Shalom,
Robert Kaiser

****************** Many many thanks to Robert Kaiser for doing the work of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of Sodom. They clarify the story (for which unfortunately I can't site a source) about the great Gaon of Vilna, who sat with voice but no vote on the Council of the Jews of Vilna. His task was to comment from a Torah perspective on new legislation proposed before the Council. When there was no such new legislation, he did not take part in the meeting.

One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna, where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting. "But Rabbi," said a Councilmember, "we need your comment on this proposed new legislation!"

"What new legislation?" said the Gaon. "This was already the law of Sodom, long ago!" And he left.

The proposal was dropped.

Shalom,
Arthur Waskow
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:30 PM   #67
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But, seriously now.....

What could ancient jewish texts know about the subject.

Clearly a modern web-link would have better insite than historical documents which support the "Pro-Gay" agenda.

The thing that totally pisses me off about the site used to back you up...labeling it "pro-Gay" is that I look at it as "PRO-TRUTH" which is more important to me. Labeling it "PRO-GAY" makes it so easy in an Orweillian way to pull people to your side, and make it look like there is an agenda.

All these ancient Jewish writers....they must have been "Pro-Gay" too......
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Old 01-28-2005, 01:45 PM   #68
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OK, OK, my foot is in my mouth on the hospitality issue. NB and Dreadsox, you're point is taken. Thanks. I was thinking about hospitality and how it's considered a spiritual gift, but you're right. It is something we can all practice, not just those gifted with it. I'll retract my statement on that issue.
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Old 01-28-2005, 02:27 PM   #69
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Well dreadsox, you have successfully shown that the sodomites sinned in other ways and weren't simply destroyed based on homosexual acts they committed. Nice job. But do your lengthy examples do anything to show homosexual acts aren't considered a sin or that they didn't take place in Sodom? It's clear that the sodomites practiced homosexuality to great extent. Were they all killed just because they committed homosexual acts? Nope. I never said they where. Dallas' argument I gave you didn't say that either.
Again, if you look at Dallas' rebuttals, and I suggest you do again, you'll find plenty of examples of how homosexuality existed in Sodom. Consider this statement by Dallas again too.
"The pro-gay interpretation of Sodom's destruction has some merit: homosexual rape was attempted, and the Sodomites were certainly guilty of sins other than homosexuality. But in light of the number of men willing to join in the rape, and the many other references, both Biblical and extra-Biblical, to Sodom's sexual sins, it is likely homosexuality was widely practiced among the Sodomites. It is also likely that the sin for which they are named was one of many reasons judgment finally fell on them."
As far as using the term "Pro-gay theology," isn't that essentially what it is?
And if Robert Kaiser were ever able to read this, I would say I'm not using Genesis to justify homophobia, I'm using it to explain how the Bible calls homosexual acts a sin. I can assure you too that I'm not afraid of gays.
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Old 01-28-2005, 02:34 PM   #70
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I would argue that labeling something "Pro-Gay" implies an agenda on the part of the side that looks at it the way I do.

I am sorry, but if it is the TRUTH why does it need a label like "Pro-Gay".

I think the term in and of itself on the part of the website is not meant to be a positive.

Just my thoughts.

The sodomoties practiced homosexuality no more or less than anyone else in the region I would bet.......No more or less than the temple prostitution of boys that occured in Jerusalem or anywhere else.
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Old 01-28-2005, 03:03 PM   #71
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But dread, isn't there some sort of agenda if someone is trying to say the Bible supports homosexuality? If that view of the Bible were the case, then there's a lot that has to be changed for people. An agenda doens't always have to be a bad thing either, you know? However, I can see where you're coming from and how it might bug you. I don't think it was intended to be a right-wing thing though. I mean, pro-gay theology actually sums it up. It's saying the Bible isn't against homosexuality, where as most Christians would say it is. I know we're both seeking truth here and in that case, such labels aren't necessary. Is that what you mean.
On that note dread, (and everyone else out there) I've enjoyed debating all of this with you and I hope in the heat of it all nobody was offended. I know it's a touchy and serious subject and dialogue like this is good, even if we (including myself) may get a bit emotional about it at times. I'm sure many of you wanted to reach into cyberspace and strangle me at times.
I can respect that too. I've enjoyed this thread and would like to move on to other topics in the Bible (I think the homosexuality argument is getting old as I'm sure others here would agree.)
So I guess what does the Bible mean to you?
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Old 01-29-2005, 04:07 PM   #72
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Originally posted by coemgen

As far as the Noah's Ark issue (another good question by the way) the site goes into GREAT length explaining this. It's incredible. I can tell you from my own knowledge of Genesis that Noah didn't have to collect the animals, they came to him under God's guidance. The site even answers your question about salt water and freshwater fish in this case. It also looks at how all the world's animals fit into the ark, how Mt. Everest was covered in water and whether or not the ENTIRE Earth was flooded. It also answers how animals from Australia made it to the ark. Check these sites out. I think you'll find them to be way more in-depth than you would've ever thought. It also addresses your point on the Black Sea.
I think this site will give you the historical, scientific and logical explanations you (and I'm sure others) were looking for.


Hey guys,
Don't mean any disrespect, but it doesn't appear that there's enough water on the planet nor in the water cycle to facilitate a flood that would cover Mount Everest. I'm not sure how reliable this site is, but if the polar ice caps were to melt completely, sea level would rise by approximately 2,153 ft (1), nowhere near the 29,035 feet needed to cover Mount Everest.

I urge people to be a little more wary when using Biblical passages to try and form-fit scientific conclusions. Science allows testing, observation, data collection and interpretation of results to suggest conclusions, not the other way around. Trying to make scientific evidence fit religious doctrine is a dangerous bias that, like any researcher bias, can lead to the use of incomplete scientific information and hasty conclusions.

I'd also like to add that some of the events that take place in the bible may be, in fact, historically documented events. However, that does not mean that the bible is a reliable source of historical information. Far from it. Just because I say 'X' and 'X' proves to be true does not mean that if I say 'Y', that 'Y' is automatically true. Each statement requires its own justification, regardless of the origin. To assume the reliability of any statement from a source based solely on one's perception of or past experience with that source is called a genetic fallacy. Truth 'X' does not prove 'Y' just because they come from the same source.

I think it's also important to remember that the burden of proof is always on the person who makes the original assertion. It's OK to claim the Bible is infallible or the word of God etc, but that's no more than a belief without some sort of justification. Just because all biblical passages cannot be scientifically disproven is not proof that any part of the bible is reliable or valid.

Jon

Source:

(1)http://science.howstuffworks.com/question473.htm
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Old 01-29-2005, 08:06 PM   #73
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how did this become a gay/anti-gay thread?
why are christians so afraid of homosexuals? their fear only goes to show that they don't know any.
Before anyone labels this as a generalization, think about it. If you are a conservative christian, how many gay friends do you have? And, you can't count fellow workers you only say hi to.
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Old 01-29-2005, 08:14 PM   #74
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The bible is of GOd, even though the book has been translated many times into many diffrent languages, it is still of God. That is why God calls prophets to interpret the book to the will of God, and not of man. And to share with us the truth of the book. King James version is best version with the least amount of translations, and changes to the book.
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Old 01-29-2005, 08:56 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by blueyedpoet
how did this become a gay/anti-gay thread?
why are christians so afraid of homosexuals? their fear only goes to show that they don't know any.
Before anyone labels this as a generalization, think about it. If you are a conservative christian, how many gay friends do you have? And, you can't count fellow workers you only say hi to.
you just generalized all the christians saying there afraid, I dont think there afraid of homosexuals, the majority of them, but they have diffrent moral standards then them. I can speak for myself, I am not afraid of homosexuals, they are people just like everyone else, and there is not one person in this world better then the other, we are all equals, no matter what. But- morality plays a huge part in this, and beliefs, that it is wrong, and not an approiatte lifestyle to live and not Godly or ordained of God, but marriage with an offspring, man to woman.
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