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Old 01-04-2007, 10:48 AM   #16
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Originally posted by randhail
It's not just idiots that are running up the health insurance premiums. The whole system is set up based on treatment rather than prevention. Ask any health care provider how hard it would be to make a living through preventation alone. Tests and procedures need to be done in order to get reimbursemants. Development of drugs A and B along with diagnostic machines C and D are driving the cost up to. It's sort of like an arms race going on. So in the eyes of many, the guy smoking unfiltered camels drinking whole milk is a better patient than the patient who runs 5 miles and drinks a glass of wine a day. So living a healthier life will do little to bring premiums down under this current system.
Agreed, driven as well by the fear, and reality, of frivolous and predatory malpractice lawsuits.

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If we continue down this path, there is no doubt where it will end. After all, if it is appropriate for the government to protect us from using dangerous guns and bicycles--logic calls for prohibiting still more dangerous activities such as hand gliding, motorcycling, skiing. If the government is to protect us from ingesting dangerous substances, the logic calls for prohibiting alcohol and tobacco.
Let the government give us information but let us decide for ourselves what chances we want to take with our own lives.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:55 AM   #17
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Exactly, it's definitely backwards logic, but it's whats going on - the whole system feeds on it. Health care seems to disobey the tradition rules of economics. It's really amazing when you sit down and look at how messed up the system is. Without a major overhaul of the system, which in it's own right would be extremely difficult, the problem will only get worse.
Yes there are huge problems with the system, I won't deny that, but there are also major moves forward. We are keeping people in hospital stay a lot less, treatments are quicker, better, etc but it's still the patients that are running up the majority of problems.
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Old 01-04-2007, 10:57 AM   #18
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Maybe idiots should be picking up the bill; higher premiums on the basis of risk factors, but then is it allowable to take the step beyond the strictly environmental and go to genetic?
And how long before these arguments are used to justify infanticide of disabled babies deemed "too expensive?"
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:01 AM   #19
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Are we talking selecting embryos, engineering our children, abortion or infantide because im alright with 3/4.
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Old 01-04-2007, 11:31 AM   #20
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Are we talking selecting embryos, engineering our children, abortion or infantide because im alright with 3/4.
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“We can terminate for serious foetal abnormality up to term but cannot kill a newborn. What do people think has happened in the passage down the birth canal to make it okay to kill the foetus at one end of the birth canal but not at the other?”
-- John Harris, a member of the England's Human Genetics Commission and professor of bioethics at Manchester University.
Nov 2006,
Using this logic, why wouldn't embryo selection, genetic engineering, abortion and infanticide all be considered medically ethical options?
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:07 PM   #21
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We draw a line between embryo and foetus, between foetus and baby; therer is a difference between selecting an embryo to live and killing off a live baby, there is a difference between terminating a foetus and killing a baby. Ethical concerns demand we consider what constitutes a human life.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:10 PM   #22
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Is this seriously going to turn into an abortion thread? That might win the FYM award for "best" derail ever, then again there are so many possibilities
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:14 PM   #23
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Agreed, driven as well by the fear, and reality, of frivolous and predatory malpractice lawsuits.

(Paging John Edwards)

Ding ding ding. A lot of tests are completely unnecessary, but are done out of fear of a lawsuit - the good old fashioned cover your ass approach. I'm not defending bad physicians, but bad ones and lawsuit eager people make it a lot worse for everyone else. Just take a look at malpractice premiums for obstetricians if you think health premiums are bad.
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Old 01-04-2007, 01:25 PM   #24
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Yes there are huge problems with the system, I won't deny that, but there are also major moves forward. We are keeping people in hospital stay a lot less, treatments are quicker, better, etc but it's still the patients that are running up the majority of problems.
I think these are positive things as well, but then you have people complaining that medicine is completely depersonalized. It becomes almost like fast food service, you get people in and out quickly and it becomes a question of quantity over quality.

I do disagree with you on the issue of patients being the major problem, well maybe more indirectly disagree. There is no emphasis on prevention and very little incentive to change this right now. In the long run it's much better to deal with healthy people rather than people that have abused there bodies, but the system as it stands now favors the treatment of the sick. You can even see this is the disparity in physicians' pay. Primary care docs are in huge need, but the needs are going unfilled right now because specialists do better, frequently vastly better.

If I'm dealing out blame, I'm blaming everyone for getting us into this mess.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:27 PM   #25
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Originally posted by Ormus
An irrelevant side tangent, because whether your health care is public or private, idiots are still running up the bill, as American health insurance premiums can attest.
Funny, I thought American health insurance premiums are high because US consultants are the highest paid in the world and any talk of public funding or government intervention is viewed as 'socialism'.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:28 PM   #26
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I think these are positive things as well, but then you have people complaining that medicine is completely depersonalized. It becomes almost like fast food service, you get people in and out quickly and it becomes a question of quantity over quality.

I do disagree with you on the issue of patients being the major problem, well maybe more indirectly disagree. There is no emphasis on prevention and very little incentive to change this right now. In the long run it's much better to deal with healthy people rather than people that have abused there bodies, but the system as it stands now favors the treatment of the sick. You can even see this is the disparity in physicians' pay. Primary care docs are in huge need, but the needs are going unfilled right now because specialists do better, frequently vastly better.

If I'm dealing out blame, I'm blaming everyone for getting us into this mess.
Medicine has become depersonalized, well most of it has, but it's been forced in that direction.

I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no emphasis on prevention", the facts(for the most part) are out there. Maybe there needs to be more education, but who's fault of this?

Iron horse knows the facts about smoking and bad fat, but he chooses to ignore it, he almost brags about it. He sees no problem with his actions and ignores what it does to others.

The 2 largest driving factors are; the patients like this, and the greedy doctors that forced the litigation changes in the 80's. The 80's is where we started to see a growth in lazy medicine that resulted in legitimate litigation. These legitimate cases started opening doors to more illigitimate ones and now causing doctors to overcompensate.
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Old 01-04-2007, 02:38 PM   #27
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If we continue down this path, there is no doubt where it will end. After all, if it is appropriate for the government to protect us from using dangerous guns and bicycles--logic calls for prohibiting still more dangerous activities such as hand gliding, motorcycling, skiing.

hand gliding??

Please, not hand gliding

(keep the government out of my hand gliding activities)

life would not be worth living.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:01 PM   #28
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Medicine has become depersonalized, well most of it has, but it's been forced in that direction.

I'm not sure what you mean by "there is no emphasis on prevention", the facts(for the most part) are out there. Maybe there needs to be more education, but who's fault of this?

Iron horse knows the facts about smoking and bad fat, but he chooses to ignore it, he almost brags about it. He sees no problem with his actions and ignores what it does to others.

The 2 largest driving factors are; the patients like this, and the greedy doctors that forced the litigation changes in the 80's. The 80's is where we started to see a growth in lazy medicine that resulted in legitimate litigation. These legitimate cases started opening doors to more illigitimate ones and now causing doctors to overcompensate.

Preventative medicine is basically treating a person before they get sick or decreasing the chances of a person becoming sick - changing diet, active lifestyle, regular checkups, etc. Current medicine is based on treatment of the sick, ie - you've got clogged arteries, then we'll go put in a stent. The idea behind the prevention is to try to make it so that you don't get to this point. It requires active participation by the physician and the patient. So yes, people that don't care of themselves make it worse for everyone else because they take up time, resources, etc. People need to want to take care of themselves, but do we force them to by raising their premiums? I don't know.

I'm not really sure what happened in the 80s so perhaps you could give me some background on that. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but please don't generalize and call physicians greedy - some of them are and there are bad physicians out there, but the overwhelming majority of them truly want to help and have been handcuffed by the system.

Recently there have been many steps taken by the AMA and other groups to improve the quality of care delivery. The younger generation especially is making this happen. You now have physicians taking stands against the "free lunches" that pharma sales people give out in an effort to get their drugs purchased - which to me is a huge step. Pharma, health insurance companies, and society need to get on board as well to drive the change.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:26 PM   #29
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Preventative medicine is basically treating a person before they get sick or decreasing the chances of a person becoming sick - changing diet, active lifestyle, regular checkups, etc. Current medicine is based on treatment of the sick, ie - you've got clogged arteries, then we'll go put in a stent. The idea behind the prevention is to try to make it so that you don't get to this point. It requires active participation by the physician and the patient. So yes, people that don't care of themselves make it worse for everyone else because they take up time, resources, etc. People need to want to take care of themselves, but do we force them to by raising their premiums? I don't know.

I'm not really sure what happened in the 80s so perhaps you could give me some background on that. I'm sure you didn't mean to, but please don't generalize and call physicians greedy - some of them are and there are bad physicians out there, but the overwhelming majority of them truly want to help and have been handcuffed by the system.

Recently there have been many steps taken by the AMA and other groups to improve the quality of care delivery. The younger generation especially is making this happen. You now have physicians taking stands against the "free lunches" that pharma sales people give out in an effort to get their drugs purchased - which to me is a huge step. Pharma, health insurance companies, and society need to get on board as well to drive the change.
I'm a big believer in preventative health, but my point is you can't force patients to do so, banning is in part forcing citizens to take better care of themselves, but it does go overboard.

By no means was I trying to call all physicians greety, my point was the few bad seeds made a problem for all. Doctors trying to see more patients, rushing diagnosis, etc caused a spike in legitimate lawsuits. These lawsuits in return opened the door for less legitimate and illegitimate ones.

Yes there are big steps being made so that big Pharma aren't bribing the doctors, unfortunately there are still some finding loopholes. "Free lunches" are slowly being phased out. I'm in medical sales(orthopedic devices), I see this firsthand. I turned down offers from companies that practiced what I saw as unethical "sales techniques". It's one thing to bring the office some bagels in the morning and another to offer commisions to doctors or fancy golf trips.
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Old 01-04-2007, 03:33 PM   #30
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I think this topic has gone on long enough. What if some child wanders in here. It might cause them damage.


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