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Old 07-08-2002, 12:20 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


A civil war is effectively a war with itself.
Well about this we can discuss when we see each other
I am the opinion that a state is a construction. To say that a state fights war with itself is, in my opinion, incorrect, because a state canīt fight, but its soldiers fight and die for it. So this was an issue like soldiers from the north kill soldiers from the south and vice versa.

Now take a look at what picture you develop in your head when you hear "soldiers killed soldiers" and "a state fights itself". The second example is much easier to hear, isnīt it?

This is how propaganda functions.

You could compare it with the usage of phrases like "The economy makes this and that", or "Capitalism is responsible for..."
In reality, there are always persons standing behind that. There are people who direct economy, there are actors in whatever system, see?

Donīt underestimate this point, it is important. Because a state, or economy, or things in general, canīt be held (or only under very difficult circumstances) responsible for the damages they cause. People can. In our society there is more and more anonymosity, this is why I am so picky about this.

Hope you see my point of view.
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Old 07-08-2002, 12:24 PM   #17
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hehe, I can see your point. And I look forward to discussing it over a nice cup of coffee or beer this fall.
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Old 07-08-2002, 12:45 PM   #18
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In the American Civil War, part of the nation tried to secede and form its own nation, and the other part tried to prevent that from happening - and the conflict came to violence.

To say that this is incorrect because a nation is merely a construction and is incapable of fighting is, well, bewildering.

You say that "a state canīt fight, but its soldiers fight and die for it," and nobody disputes this. But also very few misunderstand the point that is being made.

Basically, I used a METAPHOR.

I mean, I've seen threads discuss WWII, and state things that the U.S., England, and the Soviet Union fought Germany and Japan. Does anyone interrupt THOSE threads to note that Germany didn't technically fight, that Germany's soldiers did?

No - because to do so is silly.

Quote:
Now take a look at what picture you develop in your head when you hear "soldiers killed soldiers" and "a state fights itself". The second example is much easier to hear, isnīt it?

This is how propaganda functions.
"A state fights itself" is a metaphor, something that most people are very aware of and that most people don't object to.

When somebody says "England fought Germany" and somebody else says "English soldiers fought German soldiers," I get pretty much the same picture: military battles. If anything, the former brings the idea from a mere skermish to a full-scale war, something supported by each nation's government and general population.

And to suggest that what I said is propaganda is idiotic.


(While I'm at this point, note that you yourself used a metaphor: "look at what picture develops in your head." If you consider THIS statement with the same literal mind you applied to my statement, you'd have to call your own words foolish. After all, you can't literally see anything within your own mind, and no mental image develops the same way a photograph develops.)
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Old 07-08-2002, 02:31 PM   #19
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No Bubba, I am still not your opinion.

First, let us be peaceful, calm down. I was not trying to accuse you personally of using propaganda, I stated that this is exactly how (mild, but effective if it is repeated over and over)propaganda functions.

Then, I think you didnīt get my point. I was not trying to explain that only logic arguments may be applied, and that everything has to be stripped down to logic. I was pointing out that my personal opinion is that you have to be careful IN WHICH CASE you use your beloved metaphors.

Yes, maybe "a picture in the head" is a metaphor. But whether I use this metaphor, or I say, "look what thoughts you connect with those two descriptions" leads to a meaningless discussion.
Because those things mean the same.

But when you say: -

Second, the U.S. showed itself willing to fight a war with ITSELF (oh my god! also the biiiiig letters) to purge this atrocity -

instead of:

- In the American Civil war, part of the nation.... etc. -

There IS a difference, and not only the difference of using a sweet little metaphor. With your first description, I connect the thought that, well... ummm... in every nation slavery has happened, but we were, in compare to others, also such a GREAT nation that we fought against our blood, or even better "that the country fought against itself". Like a poor Uncle Sam scratching his head, and then thanks to God finally going the right way.

Your second description sounds more down to the ground, more real. Stay there, it fits you better.

And if weīre already at it: Who are you to mention what is equivalent to what? How can you be so blind to compare pain with other pain? Oh, I also did this - one time - , but I mentioned my mistake beforehand, giving everyone a chance to see that in reality this kind of argument is shaky. Who do you believe to be, to freely compare millions of deaths to other millions of deaths?

Now, if you want to call ME bewildering and stupid, thatīs ok. YOU ARE THE JUDGE.

(Note that I am not accusing you, I am just stating my opinion, because you canīt accuse a judge, can you?)
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Old 07-08-2002, 03:05 PM   #20
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


This is how propaganda functions.



People.
Let this be understood-

There has been alot of talk...( about this thread).
Maybe TOO MUCH TALK.
This THREAD is NOT a PROPAGANDA THREAD.
This thread is...a thread about-
contemplation
reflection
and
aprreciation
of our colllective blessings..:idea:

DB9
:idea:
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Old 07-08-2002, 04:15 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
No Bubba, I am still not your opinion.
Um, pardon?

Quote:
Yes, maybe "a picture in the head" is a metaphor. But whether I use this metaphor, or I say, "look what thoughts you connect with those two descriptions" leads to a meaningless discussion.
Because those things mean the same.

But when you say: -

Second, the U.S. showed itself willing to fight a war with ITSELF (oh my god! also the biiiiig letters) to purge this atrocity -

instead of:

- In the American Civil war, part of the nation.... etc. -

There IS a difference, and not only the difference of using a sweet little metaphor. With your first description, I connect the thought that, well... ummm... in every nation slavery has happened, but we were, in compare to others, also such a GREAT nation that we fought against our blood, or even better "that the country fought against itself". Like a poor Uncle Sam scratching his head, and then thanks to God finally going the right way.
And what, may I ask, is wrong in asserting that the United States was one of the few nations on Earth willing to go to war to settle the issue of slavery? Even if slavery wasn't the central reason the war was started, Lincoln's Gettysburg Address made it clear that slavery was why the war was continued - why the Union didn't just let the Confederacy go on its merry way.

The assertion IS accurate, so what's your problem?

Quote:
And if weīre already at it: Who are you to mention what is equivalent to what? How can you be so blind to compare pain with other pain? Oh, I also did this - one time - , but I mentioned my mistake beforehand, giving everyone a chance to see that in reality this kind of argument is shaky. Who do you believe to be, to freely compare millions of deaths to other millions of deaths?
Who am I? I'm a simple human being who has an innate (albeit fallible) sense of morality and a fearless willingness to use it.

Let me make this clear: some things are bad, and some things are worse.

Accidentally killing somebody (e.g., vehicular manslaughter), through the result of your own negligence is bad. Intentionally killing somebody in a blind rage (after, say, finding the guy in bed with your wife) is worse. Planned, premeditated murder is worse still. A planned premeditated murder that follows hours of torture is even worse. And a systematic series of tortures and murders - the work of a serial killer - is even more horrible.

This sort of thing should be clear, and the same sort of clarity should be seen in comparing world events.

In the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the United States dropped bombs on cities of a enemy country in the midst of a war - a war propigated by the enemy country - on the eve of probably a very bloody ground campaign. The bombings resulted in the deaths of about 250,000 people - a quarter million, so I'm not comparing "millions of deaths" to "millions of deaths."

In the case of the Nazi Holocaust, individual citizens were dragged from their homes, suffered in prison camps, and were gassed to death - all because they were Jews, gypsies, or other "undesirables." The Holocaust resulted in the deaths of six million.

Numbers aside, we're comparing bombings within the context of war and the attempted genocide of an entire race. Numbers included, the Nazi Holocaust also caused about 25 times more deaths.

It should be obvious to anyone that the Nazi Holocaust was worse.
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Old 07-08-2002, 08:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
The tape showed prisoners in Iraq getting limbs amputated for stealing TVs ect,,
In our country PRISONERS complain if they DONT have a color TV in their cell

Whats up w that.?
Some countries put you before a firing squad if you are caught drunk driving; others will drive the person miles out of town and make them walk home.

While I think our drunk driving laws are too loose, at least we have a) regulated laws and b) do not KILL people because they drive drunk.

There are many ways we are very very lucky. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else.

Thanks Diamond for the reminder.
Also, this is why I like to go to the parades- to clap for all the men and women who do my dirty work, while I "sleep in the comfort of my freedom."

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Old 07-08-2002, 09:05 PM   #23
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Thanks Olive

I ACTUALLY threw up after watching only 2/3rds of this.
This is how DISTURBING this was to me

It covered Tito's brutality in Yukoslavia
to
The recent Bosnian crisis
to
Mafia Executions In Russia
to
Recent Palestian Terror ect ect ect.

Made me puke.

I love my country.
I HATE ppl who KILL the innocent wmalice.

DB9
:idea:
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Old 07-09-2002, 03:07 AM   #24
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*sigh*

on one hand, i feel very blessed to live in such a free country, but on the other hand, i feel like i don't deserve it. i mean, i was born in argentina, and they've had lots of troubles as well...listen to 'mothers of the dissappeared'.....anyway, i feel like there are so many wonderful people who are oppressed so much, and they should be here, learning and living.....i mean, i feel like there's not much we can do to truly help.....it's sad that there's so much pain and injustice that we can't do anything about................the world tends to be a horrible place.........and i can only hope for a better life to come......
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Old 07-09-2002, 06:46 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba




The assertion IS accurate, so what's your problem?



Who am I? I'm a simple human being who has an innate (albeit fallible) sense of morality and a fearless willingness to use it.

Let me make this clear: some things are bad, and some things are worse.

Accidentally killing somebody (e.g., vehicular manslaughter), through the result of your own negligence is bad. Intentionally killing somebody in a blind rage (after, say, finding the guy in bed with your wife) is worse. Planned, premeditated murder is worse still. A planned premeditated murder that follows hours of torture is even worse. And a systematic series of tortures and murders - the work of a serial killer - is even more horrible.

This sort of thing should be clear, and the same sort of clarity should be seen in comparing world events.

In the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the United States dropped bombs on cities of a enemy country in the midst of a war - a war propigated by the enemy country - on the eve of probably a very bloody ground campaign. The bombings resulted in the deaths of about 250,000 people - a quarter million, so I'm not comparing "millions of deaths" to "millions of deaths."

In the case of the Nazi Holocaust, individual citizens were dragged from their homes, suffered in prison camps, and were gassed to death - all because they were Jews, gypsies, or other "undesirables." The Holocaust resulted in the deaths of six million.

Numbers aside, we're comparing bombings within the context of war and the attempted genocide of an entire race. Numbers included, the Nazi Holocaust also caused about 25 times more deaths.

It should be obvious to anyone that the Nazi Holocaust was worse.


Hey, JUDGE!

You donīt want to answer me, right? Thatīs ok. Go on comparing Nazis and nuclear bombs if you like to. Iīm not going to waste my time with blah.


God only knows all the trouble that grows
Deep beneath my soul dealing with you....
Dré, pass me the glass of wine
So I can pour it over my homies grave and mine
For all those who fallen and answered when God was calling
Jump in my ragtop and get all in
Iīm the bomb planted in your car, why youīre frozen
Pop the tape in ignite the Xplosion
The world is mine, the world is yours, the world is ours,
The world is lost, the world is fossed...

B-Real on Xplosion
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Old 07-09-2002, 07:33 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
Hey, JUDGE!

You donīt want to answer me, right? Thatīs ok. Go on comparing Nazis and nuclear bombs if you like to. Iīm not going to waste my time with blah.
What question did I not answer?
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Old 07-10-2002, 05:02 AM   #27
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*sigh*

We were discussing about the validity of metaphors, not about Nazis vs. nuclear bombs and what is worse (which is a really ridiculous argument). Are you stoned, Judge? No, you donīt have to answer this. Tell me about the metaphor and if, for you, there is really absolutely no difference between:

Second, the U.S. showed itself willing to fight a war with ITSELF to purge this atrocity.

and:

In the American civil war, part of the nation tried to secede and form its own nation, and the other part tried to prevent that happening - and the conflict came to violence.

*goes back to sleep*
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Old 07-10-2002, 10:11 AM   #28
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Maybe the holocaust is not comparable to the nuclear bombs, I think the holocaust is more comparable to the extermination of the American Indigenans.
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Old 07-10-2002, 10:36 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stories for Boys
*sigh*

on one hand, i feel very blessed to live in such a free country, but on the other hand, i feel like i don't deserve it. ...anyway, i feel like there are so many wonderful people who are oppressed so much, and they should be here, learning and living
The Perfect Justification for allowing yourself to sleep well at night while you go out the next day and order a 32 Oz Prime Rib Cut.. Then come home .. feel guilty about the fact that you got to buy that juicy steak, because you only needed 12 oz of it and that other 20 Oz could go to a starving child in Africa... Then you fall asleep feeling good about yourself because you 'care'. Please. Spare us your Guilt Ridden Panderous Disclaimers. Take Nyquil if you're having that much trouble getting shut-eye.

I find it funny that people are shitting upon the Atom Bomb as a Mistaken Mark in our History.. Or maybe the greater atrocity would have been the 60,000 American lives that would have been lost otherwise.

L.Unplugged
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Old 07-10-2002, 12:54 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
*sigh*

We were discussing about the validity of metaphors, not about Nazis vs. nuclear bombs and what is worse (which is a really ridiculous argument). Are you stoned, Judge? No, you donīt have to answer this. Tell me about the metaphor and if, for you, there is really absolutely no difference between:

Second, the U.S. showed itself willing to fight a war with ITSELF to purge this atrocity.

and:

In the American civil war, part of the nation tried to secede and form its own nation, and the other part tried to prevent that happening - and the conflict came to violence.

*goes back to sleep*
There is a difference: The first focused on the fact that the war revolved around slavery, the second statement did not.

Otherwise, there is no substantial difference.

And - I mentioned this in a different thread, but it bears repeating - stop calling me "Judge."
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