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Old 12-16-2004, 08:36 PM   #106
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Still not following. Injustice must be paid for, yes.

How does this work for AIDs victims, famine victims etc? Are you saying they are being punished for something they have done?
I also don't understand how this works for people dying of natural disasters; earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.; something that humans simply have no control or influence over.

And I have real problem believing that they're caused by human evil, since these things have been happening looooooong time before humans' ancestors even appeared on Earth.

I really think that we humans are way too fond of putting ourselves in the centre of everything.
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Old 12-17-2004, 05:42 AM   #107
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Whats the difference between what you describe and a Christian saying "oh well, its God addressing the imbalance of good versus evil so this AIDs victim must die" ?

Both statments are nasty horrible. Tis why Im not religious.

I also dont like the "forgiveness" concept. I believe if someone has stuffed up then they should address the situation, take charge, apologise to the people effected, and make amends. Not go and tell someone unconnected to the incident and then think everythings okay. I have lost friends with Christians over time as I dont respect them when they dont take ownership of their mistakes.

You might NotAnEasyThing, but some of the ones I have had bad dealings with dont.
G'day again Beli!

With the greatest respect....aren't you putting words in mouth? I don't believe I ever said "God addressing the imbalance of good versus evil means and Aids victim must die"

I believe you may not have understood my previous post which was in answer to your question on my explaination of the Christian understanding of evil. What I did say was exactly what you are now indicating is your position on individual responsibility. I was explaining that the bible places us (individually & collectively) as responsible for the consequences of our actions. Your arguement about the aids victim is not with me (or the bible for that matter). Perhaps you have known Christians who have said stuff like that. That view is a load of crap as far as I'm concerned. Insensitive, ignorant crap.

If your christian friends have not taken responsibility for their hurtful actions toward others (or you) they are certainly not following a Christian/ Biblical approach to relationships. Actually that's one of the things I find most compeling about Christian spirituality. In the bible relationships are primary. Relationship with God/ realtionship with others. It is such a priority and it's the thing that Jesus seemed to talk about more than anything else. The bible puts the onus on the individual to seek restoration of damaged/broken relationships whether they have done the offending or been offended. The issue of forgiveness is a more fundamental one. Christians don't seek God's forgiveness to avoid doing the work of maintaining healthy relationships with others. In fact there is a verse from the bible which says this "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving eachother, just as in Christ, God has forgivien you".

Forgiveness in terms of forgiveness from God, is about dealing with the root problem of the evil in our own hearts. Don't take my word for it, check out what the bible says for yourself.

In my opinion most people who reject christianity reject what they think is 'christianity' and is usally not even close. I may be naive but I reckon if anyone truely looked at what Jesus was on about for themselves, they couldn't help but be captivated

Anyway, just my two cents
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Old 12-17-2004, 03:44 PM   #108
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With the greatest respect....aren't you putting words in mouth? I don't believe I ever said "God addressing the imbalance of good versus evil means and Aids victim must die"
I didnt intend that to imply that you said that sentence. My apologies if thats how it came across.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing
In my opinion most people who reject christianity reject what they think is 'christianity' and is usally not even close. I may be naive but I reckon if anyone truely looked at what Jesus was on about for themselves, they couldn't help but be captivated
[/B]
I dont believe in any gods, so any religion based on the belief in any gods is not going to gel with me.

As for Christianity, I do not understand the justice, good vs evil issues. Never have understood it and you are not the first to try and explain it to me.

I think some people are wired to be religious and some arent. Why are people different? I have not a clue.
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Old 12-18-2004, 01:58 AM   #109
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No further religious talk in this atheist thread..

Let me relax for a moment..

Let me enjoy the peace
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Old 12-18-2004, 02:05 AM   #110
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See I don't need to "get" the Christian message to live my life in an honourable manner, I am well read in many areas and I do work to live a good life - I will not suceed or be flawless but that is because I am a human being, nothing more and nothing less - we do not have to be guided to do these things through religion.

The concept of evil is a more interesting one, I am of a strong opinion that there is evil in this world - a destructive streak within mankind. It is something that can be looked at and understood but the concept of an inborn evil within humanity simply does not fly - a brilliant logical leap if one wanted to justify the spreading of religious ideas but hardly grounded as a cause for suffering on this earth. Our problems are caused by mankind and so shall they be remedied by mankind - we have achieved so much in our brief stint on the endless sheet of nothingness and if we maintain it we will achieve so much more.
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Old 12-18-2004, 02:38 AM   #111
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Clearly we have enough beer, sun and sport - we dont need God here. We're probably the most dehydrated nation as a result.

Doesn't Denmark have that State something'd religion? I remember when that man died over there and someone posted a thread about it in here with an article, and it gave a brief outline of Denmark's religious position.

I think I respect athiests. There's no righteousness. No rules and norms and quoting Thats Life! Magazine at the drop of a hat. Christianity can border on fair dinkum insulting, and no one has ever seemed bothered. Fuck that.

Atheists aren't into the whole right, wrong, good, evil, justified, sinner, salvation malarky. It is refreshing, in this guilt ridden Christian complex world we all seem to live in.
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Old 12-18-2004, 02:52 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

I think I respect athiests. There's no righteousness.
I've met quite a few athiets who are righteous. I hear there is no God, you are a fool, and belief is a lie. I even hear it in here.
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Old 12-18-2004, 02:59 AM   #113
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Ah yes. That's true. I guess I dont think of it like that as I don't really hear it myself, not being too big on religion as a concept. Not that you need to be big on it to hear it or see it.

It all falls under brow-beating then.
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Old 12-18-2004, 03:01 AM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem

It all falls under brow-beating then.
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Old 12-18-2004, 03:30 AM   #115
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Is that a sincere eyebrow? What I mean is, there is a certain level of pushiness in it all.
If I've just ruined your pun though, I do apologise
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Old 12-18-2004, 04:29 AM   #116
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I just wonder why this thread has such a disproportionate number of Australian posters - seriously it's bugging me out.
I haven't thought anything being discussed here was unique to Australians.

I know more people that are agnostic or aethists than are very religious in my area. I believe society can benefit by following the teachings of Jesus, but I question/don't agree with a lot of the scripture. Perhaps that makes me agnostic.

I also agree with U2Kitten - that there has to be something else after this life. I don't have a concrete answer for myself - we could go to "heaven", we could be reincarnated. I also believe that whatever it is, it is there for all but those with evil hearts - not just Christians that follow what they believe to be the rules.
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Old 12-18-2004, 04:32 AM   #117
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I often think this too. I have a 4 year old daughter and we haven't taught her anything about these issues. I thought we would wait until she asks. But my mother in law is Irish Catholic and my daughter will come back from staying the night with her Nana and ask ''Why does Nana sit on the floor and ask that God save you Mummy and Daddy? Have you been bad?"
I am sorry you and your daughter have to go through this.
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Old 12-18-2004, 05:23 AM   #118
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I also believe that whatever it is, it is there for all but those with evil hearts - not just Christians that follow what they believe to be the rules.
Hi BostonAnne! I'm just watching your city on the Elevation DVD! What a great crowd y'all make- wish I could have been there, that concert must have been amazing.

Your comment just caught my eye, it sort of sums up what I was refering to in my previous post about how people so often reject Christianity on their assumption of what it is. I don't mean to just single you out, so sorry if it seems that way- it could be that was just a throw away line. However, that seems to so often be peoples perception of Christianity- that it is all about following a set of rules to get to heaven. This is so not the case, but I think there are many in the church who have a lot to answer for, for giving people this kind of impression.

They spend so much time and energy on condemning everyone elses behaviour and make people think that this is what it's all about- you do x,y,z then you will be acceptable to them and to God. Ahghhh!! That is a concept foreign to Jesus. Christianity is not about rules, it is about freedom and relationship. Unfortunately there is a lot of bad press out there for christianity and most of it is coming out of the church.

Like The "B" man said ...."Religion is what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building". (I think thats how the quote goes!?)

Anyway just wanted to make that point (if I hadn't already made it clearly)
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Old 12-18-2004, 05:43 AM   #119
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originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
I've met quite a few athiets who are righteous. I hear there is no God, you are a fool, and belief is a lie. I even hear it in here.
I agree with you. The athiests I've known saw themselves as superior to anyone who believed, and literally sneered and mocked them.
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Old 12-18-2004, 05:45 AM   #120
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There is a difference between the atheist hrumph and the general latte left sets elitist sneerage - subtle differences you see
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