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Old 12-24-2004, 12:53 AM   #331
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to become a (roman catholic) priest my brother had to study theology
funny enough most people who study theology become atheists or agnostics at best

I will make a point soon though
namely

even though my brother has studied a lot on this it hasn't touched his faith because he also frequently sees the good effects of catholicism

I don't think I really had a point to make


as to the irony of bieng an atheist and U2 fan at the same time
even Alanis Morisette has a better sense of irony
if I would only listen to music that has lyrics according to the way I approach life I could probably burn 3/4 of my cd collection
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Old 12-24-2004, 01:04 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
as to the irony of bieng an atheist and U2 fan at the same time
even Alanis Morisette has a better sense of irony
if I would only listen to music that has lyrics according to the way I approach life I could probably burn 3/4 of my cd collection

Exactly what I was thinking...
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Old 12-24-2004, 01:29 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
if I would only listen to music that has lyrics according to the way I approach life I could probably burn 3/4 of my cd collection
Same here.

Angela
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Old 12-24-2004, 04:14 AM   #334
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Exchange information and not respect or value the other person's motivation/perspective/journey? Seems very clinical to me.
I did not say I didnt respect peoples perspective etc. I said I dont care what people believe in. I do not care if others do not share my views. My opinions and beliefs are mine alone. I do not need other people to agree with my decisions to validate my beliefs. I also expect that noone else requires my validation of their beliefs.

I do admire other peoples journeys eg my husbands uncle Father/Brother Anthony. Tremendous fellow. I admire a great many things his says and does.

I admire many things that A Wanderer has said throughout this thread. I admire Annas thoughts too. I enjoyed listening to the Turkish person (my apologies I have forgotten your name) and John, and many others.

You and I are not able to communicate on the same wavelength. This was highlighted with the kettle story. I say we think in different ways, and you said other things.
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Old 12-24-2004, 05:05 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli

I did not say I didnt respect peoples perspective etc. I said I dont care what people believe in. I do not care if others do not share my views. My opinions and beliefs are mine alone. I do not need other people to agree with my decisions to validate my beliefs. I also expect that noone else requires my validation of their beliefs.

You and I are not able to communicate on the same wavelength. This was highlighted with the kettle story. I say we think in different ways, and you said other things.
You know Beli, something's just occured to me, and please by all means, tell me if this assumption is wrong. (As my father used to say if you assume, you make an ASS out of U and ME). So at the risk of making an ass out of myself......

Because I identify myself as a christian, you think that any discussion I have with you must be to try and change your mind (ie. prostylize). So when I put forward my perspective you seem to think that I won't be happy until you agree with me.

So for instance in that discussion about understanding the way someone comes to their conclusions, you seem to be a bit offended and made this response:
"I never said that. I dont care if you are content with your own conclusions. Thats your business, not mine."

Look, for what it's worth, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in ramming things down your throat. All I want to do is enjoy a frank and open discussion. If at the end of that you think differently to me, or think I'm a complete whack-job, well of course who am I to question that. I value and respect your opinion (um.., well maybe not the whack-job part ) . And in that vein I hope that my mind is open enough and that I would have enough respect to listen carefully to what you have to say on this topic, understand where you're coming from, and why you have reached the conclusions you have. Who knows...in the process it may really challenge my position and make me reconsider it.

That's all I'm saying about that understanding the other persons conclusions thing. I would be really stoked to know that you would be interested to know why I believe what I believe- to me that is the essence of respect- giving someone the time of day to really get where they are coming from. It is in no way a concession to their belief framework.

I guess that's why when I was discussing what I believe to be a reasonable approach to looking at the bible in an emperical way, it seemed to me to be dismissive to not even enter into a dialogue about what I was saying, and just to say in effect- well the bible's a load of *@^# - couldn't even be bothered.

Please don't assume that we can't communicate on the same level- and please that kettle story was not about the way I think, it was to explain the difference between the questions "why" and "how".

I trust we can still have a meaningful dialogue.

As it's just ticked over midnight let me wish you a merry christmas!

Peace,
Leigh
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Old 12-24-2004, 05:27 AM   #336
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Merry Christmas - a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.
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Old 12-24-2004, 05:36 AM   #337
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Merry Christmas - a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.
Yes ..love...peace ..all
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Old 12-25-2004, 02:24 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Because I identify myself as a christian, you think that any discussion I have with you must be to try and change your mind (ie. prostylize). So when I put forward my perspective you seem to think that I won't be happy until you agree with me.
I really dont know how to say this so you understand. I am not an embittered Ex-Christian. I did not grow up in a Christian household and then reject the church. I have no pent up resentment towards the church.

Without trying to sounding wanky, I was born and raised an atheist as was my father and his father. I never met my greatgrandparents so I have no idea how far back it goes in my family. I was also raised in the outback a long long way from the media and Christians. I have said this before.

In your particular case, with you, this particular Christian, I do feel like some of your posts are trying to convince me of something Im not interested in. Otherwise why would you keep repeating yourself. I actually feel like you have an issue with atheists and are attempting, conscious or not, to superimpose some kind of religious hate onto my posts.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing
when I was discussing what I believe to be a reasonable approach to looking at the bible
I have addressed this before.

1. Im discussing atheism/theism and you are discussing religion/Christianity
2. I am not going to dedicate my life to further reading of something Im not interested in.
3. I do not believe the bible is evidence any more than the Iliad.


Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing
and please that kettle story was not about the way I think, it was to explain the difference between the questions "why" and "how".
The kettle boiling (as distinct from the kettle is on)story is the way you think, whether you like it or not. You quoted it because it appeals to you, its what you consider right. See, I would never type such a story as I think its incorrect. So the story is about what you think. I still think the story is wrong (for me) and no amount of you telling me you are right and at me or calling me "special" is going to change that.
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Old 12-25-2004, 05:52 AM   #339
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli

I really dont know how to say this so you understand. I am not an embittered Ex-Christian. I did not grow up in a Christian household and then reject the church. I have no pent up resentment towards the church.

Without trying to sounding wanky, I was born and raised an atheist as was my father and his father. I never met my greatgrandparents so I have no idea how far back it goes in my family. I was also raised in the outback a long long way from the media and Christians. I have said this before.
Not once have I called you an embittered Ex-Christian or said you grew up in a Christian household and then rejected the church. Never have I suggested you have pent up resentment towards the church.

Arrrrgghhh! Whether you grew up in a dark hole in the ground in antarctica or wandered naked with a herd of wilderbeasts until age 11 is of little or no consequence to the point.

I accept you are an atheist through and through. I am not trying to "superimpose some kind of religious hate" onto your posts as you suggest. When have I said that?

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

1. Im discussing atheism/theism and you are discussing religion/Christianity
No. I am discussing atheism. The simple thing you don't seem to appreciate is that as I have found evidence for the existance of God in the claims of christianity, this is a valid area of discussion in a thread that is discussing the existance of God. It is one thing to disagree- in the context of the discussion that is your perogative. It is another thing however, to basically rubbish my perspective without even being willing to engage it. That is plain rude.
Quote:
Originally posted by beli

2. I am not going to dedicate my life to further reading of something Im not interested in.
Nor did i ask you to dedicate your life to it.
Quote:
Originally posted by beli

3. I do not believe the bible is evidence any more than the Iliad.
That is fine. But don't just ignore the evidence I've laid out for it if you're going to pass judgement on it. Have the decency to back it with a reason.
Quote:
Originally posted by beli
The kettle boiling (as distinct from the kettle is on)story is the way you think, whether you like it or not. You quoted it because it appeals to you, its what you consider right. See, I would never type such a story as I think its incorrect. So the story is about what you think. I still think the story is wrong (for me) and no amount of you telling me you are right and at me or calling me "special" is going to change that.
My use of the wink smilie was not some kind of tool to change your mind It is my humble attempt to show the tone I have said things in- as I said I'm pretty crap at using smilies. I can't believe we are still talking about that story actually. It was a rather insignificant part of what I have posted and not some kind of arguement I am trying to convice you about. For peats sake can you get this:
1)The story is an illustration
2)An illustration is a way of expressing something with a story.
3)What is being expressed is only in the mind of the writer (ie. ME!)
4)This particaular story was to explain something to do with my discussions with A_Wanderer
- namely the difference between two questions. One was "How has life evolved" the other was "Why has life evolved".
5)The story is neither "right" or "wrong" it is just a simple illustration
6) If you can't get what I was trying to say with it- it either means my choice of a story or use of words was inadequate to explain this concept to you
7)I did not quote it because it appeals to me or because I think it is "right". I chose it to indicate a very small, insignificant point.

You have appeared to take it as an indication that I don't ask enquiring questions of the world around me. Not only have you misunderstood my point, you have misunderstood me.

Can anyone else see what I am saying. If so please can you explain it to Beli, as I am sick of discussing this stupid story.
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Old 12-26-2004, 05:38 PM   #340
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My fathers family is catholic and my mothers family are anglican. My father is a agnostic, though my mother believes in god, she doesn't go to church. My older sister is a regular church goer, and my younger sister is agnostic too. I'd say I'm agnostic, though I hightly doubt there is a god, but not to the point of saying there isn't one.

A_Wanderer: Are you from Melbourne, Australia or Melbourne, Florida? And is that an avatar from the Futurama forum PEEL? If so, I've got over 5000 posts there Futurama is great though.
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Old 12-26-2004, 05:44 PM   #341
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Melbourne Australia and a huge futurama fan (Like Melllvar I watch the DVD's over and over again) but alas not a big PEEL poster.
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Old 12-26-2004, 05:54 PM   #342
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


Can anyone else see what I am saying. If so please can you explain it to Beli, as I am sick of discussing this stupid story.
I think that story shows that language is imprecise, and can be interpreted in as many ways as there are people using it. It's one of the reasons topics such as religion and politics are generally not discussed in polite company.

Of course, it's fine to discuss in this forum since we aren't polite company.
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Old 12-26-2004, 06:42 PM   #343
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Melbourne Australia and a huge futurama fan (Like Melllvar I watch the DVD's over and over again) but alas not a big PEEL poster.
Haha, nice. You should join us there more often.

I've got 23 pages of this thread to read Then I may be able to actually join in the dicussion
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Old 12-27-2004, 05:09 AM   #344
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One of the things that I've often wondered about in terms of atheism is as an atheist, what basis do you have for ethics. Those who have read this thread will no doubt be aware that I have a christian worldview. But I'm interested to hear from atheists as to how they go about constructing a framework for ethical behaviour and what makes something ultimately right or wrong.

I guess the line of discussion would start off with the issue of life and taking life. If there is no god, and life is just a result of chance, then why is it wrong to take another's away? Wouldn't a darwinian approach be to suggest that the stongest should survive while the weak die out?
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Old 12-27-2004, 07:44 AM   #345
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing
One of the things that I've often wondered about in terms of atheism is as an atheist, what basis do you have for ethics. Those who have read this thread will no doubt be aware that I have a christian worldview. But I'm interested to hear from atheists as to how they go about constructing a framework for ethical behaviour and what makes something ultimately right or wrong.

I guess the line of discussion would start off with the issue of life and taking life. If there is no god, and life is just a result of chance, then why is it wrong to take another's away?
mutual respect for the dignity of fellow human beings
fundamental principles of justice that allow people to live together in a community in relative peace and security

basic common decency

this question kind of irritates me, because it presumes that my lack of faith in a higher power somehow reduces me to this moralless person, operating outside the sphere of god/good. i base my ethical principles on pretty much the same thing as you do--i do my best to respect the other 6 billion people on the planet. you don't need religion to tell you that it's wrong to take what's not yours, that violence is bad for society as a whole, that human beings basically strive to live in security and peace. these aren't religious principles, they're universal ideals of human life.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing
Wouldn't a darwinian approach be to suggest that the stongest should survive while the weak die out?
this is how the world works in the market driven economy. it may not be pretty or fair, but this is our world.


on a side note, i have a little story to share that's entirely relevant to this thread. one of my best friends on the planet (and roommate for several years) is a believer. she absolutely believes in god and jesus, and has been on a quest to find a church that coincides with her beliefs. she's been running into a lot of issues with the denominations, finding that they have fundamental principles that she can't accept. she's spent a lot of time talking these things over with me, and i am supportive of her quest for spiritual fulfillment despite the fact that i do not believe. we've had some amazing conversations, and i've learned a lot from her.

what i've learned from her religous quests: even though she believes, and i don't, we share the same fundamental beliefs about human nature and the meaning of life, even similar concerns about the role (and limitations) of religion. what seems to be a massive difference in spiritual matters doesn't amount to much in terms of how we both see the world.
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