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Old 12-23-2004, 03:28 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
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Also, I never said all Christians annoy me. You said that. I said some of the fundamentalist ones on this website annoy me. You also said that I was "browned off" about Christianity because I attended an Anglican school. Again, I did not say that. You said that. etc. Please refrain.
Beli, nice to see you back on here!

I didn't say "ALL" christians either- just that there are those that do- you said especially on this website. Also I didn't say you were browned off about Christianity because you attended an Anglican school. I said it "SEEMED by your description of the anglican school experience to be browned off". I also asked for you to tell me so I needn't make any assumptions.

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

Please refrain from "I know and have known several atheist or people claiming to be atheist, more often than not after we've talked about these issues in greater depth they would probably better decribed as agnostic'.
Do you mean I can't describe my experiences?

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

Please explain how you can believe in one god and dismiss the rest? Please do not use the bible as a reference point. I am not talking about religion, Im talking about Theism. The bible is not evidence any more than the Iliad is evidence of Troy. Heinrich Schliemann, an idol of mine, discovered the remains of Troy - the walls, the jewelery, etc. This is evidence. The Iliad is not. There is geological evidence of a "great flood" of sorts. This is evidence. The bible story of Noah is not.
I think this is the main point of contention Beli. I respectfully disagree with you on the assertion that the bible is not evidence. Archeological and geological evidence is not our only source of knowledge about history. If you say that, you need to rip out most of the pages of our collective history. Importantly there is loads of archeological evidence to support the history found in the bible. When it comes to the bible I think sometimes without actually looking at it too carefully it's easy to assume it is just subjective truth. But what I have been trying to show is there is some tangible ways of testing the more contentious claims it makes- in particular, about Jesus.

As to how I can believe in one god and dismiss the rest; The idea of many gods has some inherent problems. For one thing the various spiritual expressions have conflicting claims that by virtue of simple logic can't all be true. Also there is an overall balance that I observe when I look at the universe that would make a kind of greek pantheistic apporach difficult to accept as well. But when it comes down to it, my perspective has been to examine each of the claims about God/gods that I have encountered and weigh them on their own merits, and my own experience and see what stacks up.
Quote:
Originally posted by beli

I was not particularly interested in the bible. Thats my call. That does not make your views any more valid than mine nor anyone elses in this thread.
As I have stated, I am not trying to act surperior. But the fact that I feel content with the conclusions I've come to is ok isn't it. I certainly think you have the right to feel that way too. I was only suggesting that maybe you may have missed some important information along the way. If you think I am missing something I would be grateful if you would point it out too. But if you are not interested in the bible- that's fine. It's not my only source for information about the world.

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

As for the theism issue -. Atheists deny the existence of all gods. Some Christians deny the existence of all gods, except for one. How does that work? How can a person believe that all gods dont exist except for their own?
It comes down to what God has revealed about himself both in general (ie. in creation) and in the Bible. It's a little difficult to explain this if I'm not allowed to refer to the bible. But suffice to say that I have confidence that it does indeed have a basis in fact, and so I can't just pick and choose what I would like to believe- I have to accept what God has in fact revealed about himself - all the time looking to see that it is consistent with all the things I know about the universe.

Cheers,
Leigh
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:01 PM   #317
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You dont believe the bible has ever been purposefully editted or rewritten?
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:03 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


I didn't say "ALL" christians either- just that there are those that do- you said especially on this website.
I didnt say "especially on this website"
I said:

Quote:
The Christians on this web site annoy me. Especially the fundamentalist USA ones.
ie those are the only ones (bar my mother in law) who annoy me.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


Also I didn't say you were browned off about Christianity because you attended an Anglican school. I said it "SEEMED by your description of the anglican school experience to be browned off".
How? This is what I said. How does it seem I was browned off?

Quote:
As for reading it. I attended an Anglican school for three years - 3 years of divinity, chapel, etc. Havent read much since. I also havent read Anna Karenina. Cant get into either of them.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Do you mean I can't describe my experiences?
You can describe your experiences but it reads like pseudo proletyzing(not really the right word), as in - once you spoke to them they decided they were agnostics.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

But the fact that I feel content with the conclusions I've come to is ok isn't it.
I never said that. I dont care if you are content with your own conclusions. Thats your business, not mine.
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:12 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
You dont believe the bible has ever been purposefully editted or rewritten?
Sure it has been edited. I believe it to be written by human authors but guided by God. Not rewritten, if by that you mean the original meaning altered. See my previous posts on it.
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:16 PM   #320
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Sorry I missed the other replies. Were your replies on the question of it ever being purposefully changed so it's direction was somewhat diffterent?
I'll go looking for them


my typing is horredndous on this keyboard
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:23 PM   #321
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli


I didnt say "especially on this website"
I said:



ie those are the only ones (bar my mother in law) who annoy me.

"The Christians on this web site annoy me" -doesn't that mean especially on this website are christians who annoy you?
Quote:
Originally posted by beli

How? This is what I said. How does it seem I was browned off?
I'm sorry if I misconstrued what you were saying. But to me the tone on how you have written implies a certain degree of disdain for Christians. If this is not the case then I apologise if I've misunderstood. By the way I'm fine with it if you don't like christians- some are pretty hard to like.

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

You can describe your experiences but it reads like pseudo proletyzing(not really the right word), as in - once you spoke to them they decided they were agnostics.
No actually what I mean't was that what they called atheism often turned out to be more of an agnostic view.

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

I never said that. I dont care if you are content with your own conclusions. Thats your business, not mine.
Well it matters to me how you feel about your conclusions on this topic. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion (or this thread for that matter). If it's just our own business what we believe then, why bother discussing anything at all?
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:26 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Sorry I missed the other replies. Were your replies on the question of it ever being purposefully changed so it's direction was somewhat diffterent?
Yup that's right anna. I was tlaking about that as one of the major arguements people raise as to the authenticity of the bible. Hope you can find it- this thread is getting awful big
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:34 PM   #323
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argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i'll write at home lol


\ive got the shits with this kb
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Old 12-23-2004, 04:41 PM   #324
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


"The Christians on this web site annoy me" -doesn't that mean especially on this website are christians who annoy you?
No, it means some of the Christians on this website annoy me. Theres nothing "especially" about it. The Christians I know in real life, and on other websites, dont annoy me.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Well it matters to me how you feel about your conclusions on this topic. Isn't that the whole point of a discussion (or this thread for that matter). If it's just our own business what we believe then, why bother discussing anything at all?
The point of a discussion is to determine how others feel about their conclusions? No. Point is to exchange information.

I doesnt matter to me about anybodys conclusions on religion, which this thread has turned into a discussion about. I really dont care what people do inside their own home/head. Live and Let Live.

As for this thread. Initially this thread was started by me being annoyed by various Christians on this website turning most threads in fym into a discussion on Christianity.

I have continued on as I was enjoying A Wanderers posts. I am no longer up to speed on those issues so I was enjoying listening.

I also asked you a couple of questions as it was opportune.

Im also enjoying the people talking about song lyrics, too.
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Old 12-23-2004, 07:00 PM   #325
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Im not saying it is out of place, but there is no shame to demonstrate the irony of it all.
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Old 12-23-2004, 07:44 PM   #326
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I'm thick, really thick. Can I just clarify, you think it's ironic to like a band who's music has it's share of Christian influence when one claims to be athiest themselves?
My grandmother is a devout Catholic. Not hardcore in that she talks about it, shes just very dedicated to her faith. She attends and lives an admirable life. I love her very much and am very close to her and am aware very much of how she is. It's not ironic though.
Some of my favourite books have been influenced heavily by religion and faith. That's not ironic. There's other people's faith and beliefs everywhere around us. Doesn't mean we can't be honest with our own views. Doesn't make it ironic.
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Old 12-23-2004, 08:31 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
I'm thick, really thick. Can I just clarify, you think it's ironic to like a band who's music has it's share of Christian influence when one claims to be athiest themselves?
My grandmother is a devout Catholic. Not hardcore in that she talks about it, shes just very dedicated to her faith. She attends and lives an admirable life. I love her very much and am very close to her and am aware very much of how she is. It's not ironic though.
Some of my favourite books have been influenced heavily by religion and faith. That's not ironic. There's other people's faith and beliefs everywhere around us. Doesn't mean we can't be honest with our own views. Doesn't make it ironic.
I don't even think it's odd, but maybe that's just me.

However...if there are any U2 fans here who have suddenly realized "Ack!!! I can't listen to and enjoy U2 -- I'm a godforsaken atheist (or agnostic, or neo pagen, or unitarian universalist, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or whatever...)" take a listen to The Church (they can use the fans). Us Church fans are a varied lot...we even have the token Christian or two.
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Old 12-23-2004, 08:34 PM   #328
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What, The Church has toke(n) fans?
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Old 12-23-2004, 08:41 PM   #329
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
What, The Church has toke(n) fans?


Shocking!!!



(Actually, I think it's a requirement.... )
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Old 12-23-2004, 10:54 PM   #330
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli


No, it means some of the Christians on this website annoy me. Theres nothing "especially" about it. The Christians I know in real life, and on other websites, dont annoy me.
I think this is just semantics now. By especially I was meaning "particularly", as in the christians on this website and not christians elsewhere. But bugger that, it's not even really important.

Quote:
Originally posted by beli

The point of a discussion is to determine how others feel about their conclusions? No. Point is to exchange information.

I doesnt matter to me about anybodys conclusions on religion, which this thread has turned into a discussion about. I really dont care what people do inside their own home/head. Live and Let Live.

As for this thread. Initially this thread was started by me being annoyed by various Christians on this website turning most threads in fym into a discussion on Christianity.

I have continued on as I was enjoying A Wanderers posts. I am no longer up to speed on those issues so I was enjoying listening.

I also asked you a couple of questions as it was opportune.

Im also enjoying the people talking about song lyrics, too.
Exchange information and not respect or value the other person's motivation/perspective/journey? Seems very clinical to me.
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