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Old 12-22-2004, 08:52 PM   #271
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Originally posted by beli


I disagree. There is an ancient book of Chinese medicine. I forget how old, the name of it, etc. Scientists are currently plowing through it bit by bit and are finding answers and/or assistance to answers to medical problems. I find this to be the most remarkable book.
I assume you read my post Beli, but for clarity- what I was pointing out was remarkable was the number and quality of ancient copies we have in existance today as compared with anything else. Any historian (whether or not christian) would agree that this is just breathtaking from a scientific/historical point of view. Of course it is also the first book that was printed on the printing press, has been translated into vastly more languages than any other book and is the best seller of all time. I accept your opinion that the ancient book of Chinese medicine is the most remarkable book to you, but from an objective basis, you must agree there is nothing that really comes close to the bible in these regards.

Have you read it? I only ask because I have struck a lot of people who slag off the bible and then when I ask them about it they admit they haven't actually read it much if at all. Also people often infer that certain things are in which are not at all.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:31 PM   #272
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There are lots of copies of the bible, and some are old. The first Guttenberg publication was the bible because most of the people who were literate at the time were religious. Thats not something that I personally find impressive. Just a fact of life at the time really.

As for reading it. I attended an Anglican school for three years - 3 years of divinity, chapel, etc. Havent read much since. I also havent read Anna Karenina. Cant get into either of them.

I just dont view the Bible as proof of anything. Its not evidence to me. The events are not able to be replicated.

eg There are recorded instances of pathenogenisis in turkeys but not in humans. Why is that? Im guessing you would say because God was involved. I would say because it did not happen. I dont really care how many times its written down.
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Old 12-22-2004, 09:40 PM   #273
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There's a lot in what you've been asking all_i_want, and i will try and break it down to a few points.
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ok, lets say we take these texts as they are. still, there are a lot of things that dont make sense in it. concept of a god that needs worshipping just doesnt float my boat. why would the almighty 'force' his followers to worship him? why threathen them with 'hell'? and really, why create a place called purgatory (i think there was some way of reducing the days you spend there.. dont remember how though could you explain the concept of going to hell with my quote below in mind?
Actually I think if you look at the bible in totallity you will not find a concept of a God who needs worship. You will not find a concept of a God who needs anything or anyone. What you find is a god who desires our love. To me I find a perfect parallel in creation. I don't need my kid's love, but damn if I don't want it badly. As her creation I think God really want's us to be in relationship with her. In fact one of the most confronting images of God in the bible is of a jealous lover. I think that's where the lines in Love & Peace or Else come from...you know... "lay down your treasure, you don't have time for a jealous lover".

As regard to Hell, I think spiral has answered this pretty well. The bible explicitly states that God wishes that no-one would be lost to him. It's back to that free-will thing. If people can't really have the capacity to choose against God then it's not really free will. The whole point of Jesus death was God's plan for a way to satisfy both justice and his love and provide a way to restore us to relationship with him.

And there is no mention at all of purgatory in the bible. Man-made concept.

Quote:
also i still dont understand why islam is any less legitimate than christianity. the written records started the year its book started coming and lasted for all this time. if we are going to discuss historical accuracy those records are not any less accurate.
I am not questioning the acuracy of the Koran, it is no where near as old as the bible- but I do have some big problems with it on other levels. Firstly it's message is not falsafiable as A_Wanderer has been good at identifying. Christianity is (see my previous posts on this subject). There are also many other problems I have with the message of the Koran in particular that it endorses the killing of infidels where as Christianity teaches to love your enemies. At the end of the day though it is the simply logic that they can't all be right- and I find something very unique in the christian message. Of eleven major religions of the world, ten of them teach salvation through human effort. Only Christianity recognizes the frustration and futility of mankind's own efforts and declares that our salvation rests in the provision and grace of God.

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talking about religious atrocities, do i need to mention MILLIONS of women burned at stakes by the church in the middle ages. those atrocities are just as vile as the ones that happen in iran or saudi arabia. any kind of religious fanaticism is dangerous.
I don't think it was "millions' but that's not really the point. I'm with you on this point, I think there have been tragic injustices carried out in the name of god or the church- and I think it is plain evil. For the most part these things were not done for any christian purpose at all, they were done for political expediency or greed or hate and they deserve the disdain that they recieve. I personally believe the institutional church through the middle ages become more of a political entity than the loving, living, caring family that Jesus had in mind, and power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely as they say. No wonder the reformation came. But don't write off the underlying truth of the christian message because evil people have hijacked the institutional church for their own means.

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lets take hitler for example (he's more or less my fave example to explain this) did he go to hell? more or less every religion would say 'hell, yeah!' but really, what did he do wrong? did he do anything contrary to god's will? who on earth could do something contrary to GOD'S will? i know, freedom of choice, youd say. well, where is the freedom if you know youd do something and not what is prescribed? if its gods will to give its subjects the freedom of choice, it is not his choice to forever damn the souls of the ones who dont make the choice god would like.
'do this, or go to hell' i dont really have much of a choice do i?
I think you have a very narrow view of god's justice. Freedom without consequences for actions is just chaos. Someone must be held accountable.... otherwise where is justice. Are you happy for God to just wink at the actions of say hitler (using your example). Geez, that is certainly not a god I could respect. And yet that is the thing about christianity that is just so jaw dropping. Imagine, God is so gracious as to provide a way out of the justice issue- offering to take the consequences for us. It speaks to me of the enormous passionate nature of God.

Quote:

thats only one problem i have with religions. dont even get me started on the needy, egomaniac god model they present to us. 'you have kneel before me five times a day' or 'you have to visit church every sunday'. the god i believe is not the kind that constantly 'needs' things from his subjects.

That's also the God I believe in. That is the christian conception of God, think you got sold a lemon somewhere along the line as far as what christianity is.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:05 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
There are lots of copies of the bible, and some are old. The first Guttenberg publication was the bible because most of the people who were literate at the time were religious. Thats not something that I personally find impressive. Just a fact of life at the time really.

As for reading it. I attended an Anglican school for three years - 3 years of divinity, chapel, etc. Havent read much since. I also havent read Anna Karenina. Cant get into either of them.

I just dont view the Bible as proof of anything. Its not evidence to me. The events are not able to be replicated.

eg There are recorded instances of pathenogenisis in turkeys but not in humans. Why is that? Im guessing you would say because God was involved. I would say because it did not happen. I dont really care how many times its written down.
pathenogenisis= virgin birth? I assume that's what you meant.

Beli, I think you're up to your straw man tricks again...you sneaky thing you!

You have conveniently avoided the main gist of what I was saying about the bible - namely that it has no equal in terms of our ability to check that what we read today was what was written down 2000 years ago. And from there to look at what was claimed by and about Jesus. To say you don't care how many times it is written down is completely irrelevent to what I was talking about.

I am talking about a physical event in hisotry- the life death and ressurection of Jesus. He claimed to be God and many believed him. Those who chose to in the first couple of centuries often did so at great personal cost even death. These are facts you can explore scientifically, both within and outside of the bible.

All I'm saying in regard to the bible is that it is not easily dismissed as you would like, at least if you want to have integrity about how you reach your conclusions about god. On the other hand if you want to decide that because you went to an Anglican school for a few years that that qualifies you to know conclusively that the bible is proof of nothing, then that also makes me an expert on medicine, cause I've been to hospitals many times! Maybe i could handle your next operation Beli?
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:20 PM   #275
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No thats not what I meant at all. I mean I dont care how many copies there are. Really, I honestly dont. The events are not able to be replicated. The pages are, the events are not. My pathenogenisis remark was an example of an event that is not able to be replicated. It was relevant to what I was talking about ie the events in the bible not being able to be replicated.

As for the Anglican remark. I was saying I read the bible for a period of time. Im not interested in it. How many years do I have to read it before its acceptable to chuck it out? Im not going to dedicate me life to something Im not interested in.

I also do wish you would stop with the straw man thing. I have never been accused of that before and you have mentioned it more than once. Its starting to read like a put down. As is your hospital remark.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:31 PM   #276
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


All I'm saying in regard to the bible is that it is not easily dismissed as you would like, at least if you want to have integrity about how you reach your conclusions about god. On the other hand if you want to decide that because you went to an Anglican school for a few years that that qualifies you to know conclusively that the bible is proof of nothing, then that also makes me an expert on medicine, cause I've been to hospitals many times! Maybe i could handle your next operation Beli?
I'd like to know how many times you have read the religious texts? (actually I'm interested in the answer from anyone who quotes the Bible as the ultimate authority and dismisses the religious texts of other beliefs). I'm just interested...has anyone here given more than a cursory review to other religions before deciding this one (whichever "this one" is really) is the "right" one?
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:31 PM   #277
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Originally posted by all_i_want
umm.. the obvious reasons?
I dont want to argue. I got your view point..and I have had such arguments a lot of times.

Thanks for sharing the viewpoint !!

And yes HITLER wont go to hell because hell doesnt exist !!!
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:34 PM   #278
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Beli...

Can we delete religious stuff from this thread especialy those involving God...because this is supposed to be atheist thread..

Those who want others to believe in God..Please stay away.

Thank you
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:35 PM   #279
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
No thats not what I meant at all. I mean I dont care how many copies there are. Really, I honestly dont. The events are not able to be replicated. The pages are, the events are not. My pathenogenisis remark was an example of an event that is not able to be replicated. It was relevant to what I was talking about ie the events in the bible not being able to be replicated.

As for the Anglican remark. I was saying I read the bible for a period of time. Im not interested in it. How many years do I have to read it before its acceptable to chuck it out? Im not going to dedicate me life to something Im not interested in.

I also do wish you would stop with the straw man thing. I have never been accused of that before and you have mentioned it more than once. Its starting to read like a put down. As is your hospital remark.
Sorry if it sounded like a put down Beli, it was not meant to. I just find it impossible to discuss something when you argue against a point I am not making. When you say you have read the bible for a period of time, don't you mean you listened to some teachers explain their take on it, and perhaps read a few small excerpts here and there? This is perhaps the main problem I have with the atheist position that is based on a reaction to what they've heard about the bible/jesus.

And how would replicating the virgin birth prove anything?

The reason why I have gone to the trouble of explaining the situation regarding our scientific knowledge of the bible is in answer to people's remarks about it being unreliable as a historical document. The evidence I gave was based on conventional scientific/historical methods used to check the veracity of ancient documents. If you already accept the veracity of the bible then fine. But don't claim to know that it proves nothing, if you haven't gone to the trouble of testing it's claims.

Beli of course you are entitled to choose not to, it just doesn't give you much credibility when it comes to your views on it.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:36 PM   #280
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Quote:
Originally posted by AcrobatMan
Beli...

Can we delete religious stuff from this thread especialy those involving God...because this is supposed to be atheist thread..

Those who want others to believe in God..Please stay away.

Thank you
No, no, no, can't do that...because we have to be allowed to bring some logic into the religion threads!!
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:37 PM   #281
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Originally posted by AcrobatMan
Beli...

Can we delete religious stuff from this thread especialy those involving God...because this is supposed to be atheist thread..

Those who want others to believe in God..Please stay away.

Thank you
So much for "free you mind".
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:41 PM   #282
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Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


Beli of course you are entitled to choose not to, it just doesn't give you much credibility when it comes to your views on it.
How can belief be credible? Honestly...I don't get this. One can believe, not believe, or not give a rats ass (that would be me...don't really care, but enjoy the discussion anyway, even if it's just to figure out why other people do), but belief in a god is a faith thing, not a proof thing.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:43 PM   #283
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Originally posted by indra


I'd like to know how many times you have read the religious texts? (actually I'm interested in the answer from anyone who quotes the Bible as the ultimate authority and dismisses the religious texts of other beliefs). I'm just interested...has anyone here given more than a cursory review to other religions before deciding this one (whichever "this one" is really) is the "right" one?
I have studied theology at a tertiary level including the study of the texts from all the major religions, and from many other religious movements. Outside of that I have made a quest of examing these issues of faith and spirituality in my personal life.
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:49 PM   #284
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Originally posted by indra


How can belief be credible? Honestly...I don't get this. One can believe, not believe, or not give a rats ass (that would be me...don't really care, but enjoy the discussion anyway, even if it's just to figure out why other people do), but belief in a god is a faith thing, not a proof thing.
Actually indra, this is what I have been at pains to explain. When it comes to Christianity there is something substantive to base belief on. But sure, in the end it comes down to can I be bothered? When it comes to something that to me seems so integral to life- as far as I'm concerned I can't afford not to be bothered.

Incidently my comment to Beli was that there doesn't seem much credibility to arriving at a conclusion without checking out all the facts. Isn't that what atheists accuse christians of?
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:50 PM   #285
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Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing
[B]
This is perhaps the main problem I have with the atheist position that is based on a reaction to what they've heard about the bible/jesus.
I was raised an atheist as were my parents. It has NOTHING to do with a reaction to the bible/jesus. I did not know Christianity was still alive until I was 11 years old. I keep saying that because that is the truth.

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Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

And how would replicating the virgin birth prove anything?
That its feasible, possible. ie there would be evidence that the event could possibly occur.

Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Beli of course you are entitled to choose not to, it just doesn't give you much credibility when it comes to your views on it
You are seriously coming across as a patronising Christian now. Its not a matter of being entitled to choose not to. Its about what Im entitled to choose (ie in the positive). I am an atheist because that is what I believe. I t has NOTHING to do with a rejection of the bible.

Nobody has any "credibility" in this argument. Its all personal beliefs.
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