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Old 12-22-2004, 06:56 AM   #256
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all_i_want

there are many things you can assume and you would still be correct because someone cant disapprove of it... I need not give an example ..do I ? Think something weird..and no one can prove or disapprove it.. So many times if something cant be proved conclusively in last 2000 years.... its better to assume it/He/She doesnt exist.

>> fills so much of the emptiness that science has not yet

do you attribute anything unexplainable to God....or rather is your definition is God is someone who does all the unexplainable acts. Is Unknown God ?

>>she has nothing to do with the religions on the planet right

really glad about your this stance... thats what i call non-exclusiveness..
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Old 12-22-2004, 07:01 AM   #257
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Originally posted by all_i_want
oh and also, notaneasything, id probably pass out if i didnt say this.. who says those three books give us the real answers? for all i know they were written hundreds years ago. especially bible, it was decided by an election between the cardinals for gods sake! i think religions are a very good way to manipulate people into the dominant beliefs on morals, right or wrong and so. they are by no means a road map to the truth. id say we will not find the truth till the day we die, but believing should do it until then. i believe in a god, i just think the books he supposedly put out are full of wrongs and mistake, therefore inherently not his. would god make any mistakes, you think?
all_i_want, have you even read my previous posts? I think the one above goes into great detail about why I believe the bible to be accurate, authoritive and worth exploring. Not sure what you mean by 3 books?!?!? I assume what you have said about the bible being decided by election between cardinals is a reference to how the church resolved what was to be included in the 'canon' of the bible. This was not just a simple vote for what certain people liked, as the church grew it became necessary to delininate between what was believed to be scripture and what wasn't. Christian belief was under attack from many erroneous teachings that had sprung up and people needed to know what was in fact the truth about these things. It was a gruelling task and took many years, because for a long time the church oprerated out of homes with the scripture being passed on as letters being shared etc. Please check out the evidence I have already posted on why the bible can be trusted.

Quote:

also i dont understand why islam is any less legitimate than christianity. they are both pretty dubious, especially considering the holy bible was not the original one, just another one of the hundreds of copies. the 1 copy cardinals of the time liked the most.
Again please see above
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another thing.. why do men and women of religion have to be celibates? it doesnt make sense.. having a child, creation of another being is one of the holiest things i can think of. and god forbids his most loyal followers to do this? doesnt make sense. 'devotion to god' argument is inherently flawed, since if it is not gods will for people to have sex, why even make it the only way of reproduction? all religions have condemned sex as a bad, bad thing, and nudity as well, and today sex is not viewed as such a holy action. i wont even get started about the fact that all religious leaders in all religions are male. talk about gender equality. right.
They don't have to be this way- these views are not biblically based nor essentially christian, they are cultural and they are certainly not views I (or my church for that matter) subscribe to. Sex is not bad, after all God created it as you have rightly said. Of course sex, like most other good things can be abused and misused. Perhaps some have been motivated by a desire to protect others from the effects of misused sexuality , and while their motivation is good - the result is bad. As for male leadership in christianity, there are many who believe as I do that women can hold any position in a church. Certainly there is no doubt that the bible places women on an equal footing with men, but some have misrepresented cultural references in scripture that refer to women as proscriptive and not descriptive. Similar to the issue of slavery. In the past some church leaders tried to claim the bible as endorsing slavery, because it speaks about how slaves should treat their masters and vice versa. This is only because it was written in an era when slavery was the norm- it never condones the practice, in fact it describes an apporach to life that places the same high value on all people. it is interesting to note that it was essentially christians who waged a campaign to rid the western world of slavery.
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Old 12-22-2004, 07:49 AM   #258
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ok, lets say we take these texts as they are. still, there are a lot of things that dont make sense in it. concept of a god that needs worshipping just doesnt float my boat. why would the almighty 'force' his followers to worship him? why threathen them with 'hell'? and really, why create a place called purgatory (i think there was some way of reducing the days you spend there.. dont remember how though could you explain the concept of going to hell with my quote below in mind?

also i still dont understand why islam is any less legitimate than christianity. the written records started the year its book started coming and lasted for all this time. if we are going to discuss historical accuracy those records are not any less accurate.

also, one thing i feel i should mention, regarding one of A_W's previous posts. i am not against devout christians or devout muslims. everyone is responsible of their own faith. i live in a predominantly muslim country and i know MANY people who dont
practice their religion by killing people and rock throwing or oppressing women. i think that is just a very wrong view attributed to a whole religion just cause it is practiced that way in fundementalist states. islam is just as peaceful as christianity, but after all, it depends what you get out of it.

talking about religious atrocities, do i need to mention MILLIONS of women burned at stakes by the church in the middle ages. those atrocities are just as vile as the ones that happen in iran or saudi arabia. any kind of religious fanaticism is dangerous.

there was one essay by bertrand russell.. he said, if one man came out and said he was the king of england because he is superior to the rest, people would put him in a mental institution. on the other hand, if he said people of his race or religion are superior than others, his people would rally around him. mass insanity.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
anyway, all the religions, id guess, started with some kind of divine intervention. then, over the centuries, they became the religions they are today. all predominantly male, for some reason, and full of 'threats' against the 'non-believers' and the very concept i disagree the most, 'hell'. both in islam and christianity, hell was used by the clergy to bully people into doing things.

lets take hitler for example (he's more or less my fave example to explain this) did he go to hell? more or less every religion would say 'hell, yeah!' but really, what did he do wrong? did he do anything contrary to god's will? who on earth could do something contrary to GOD'S will? i know, freedom of choice, youd say. well, where is the freedom if you know youd do something and not what is prescribed? if its gods will to give its subjects the freedom of choice, it is not his choice to forever damn the souls of the ones who dont make the choice god would like.
'do this, or go to hell' i dont really have much of a choice do i?

thats only one problem i have with religions. dont even get me started on the needy, egomaniac god model they present to us. 'you have kneel before me five times a day' or 'you have to visit church every sunday'. the god i believe is not the kind that constantly 'needs' things from his subjects.
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Old 12-22-2004, 07:50 AM   #259
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btw the three books are the old testament, the new testament and the quran
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Old 12-22-2004, 08:43 AM   #260
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Sorry all_i_want

I dont agree with anything you said in your previous post.

I could counter it but I will refrain for obvious reasons.

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Old 12-22-2004, 09:58 AM   #261
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umm.. the obvious reasons?
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Old 12-22-2004, 10:55 AM   #262
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well, ok hitler, not going to hell, im sure a lot of people will disagree with it. i can see that. so, acrobat, what else do you disagree with?
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Old 12-22-2004, 12:42 PM   #263
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I am a christian. This is what I believe...

God gave his son to us when we weren't following his teachings. Then Jesus died the most horrible death imaginable to free man of sin. The thing is, if one doesn't accept Christ as their savior, entrance into heaven is not granted. The New Testament was written for the sole purpose of teaching the world about Christ's teachings and ultimate sacrifice. It's not unfair for a God to wish his people to believe in him.
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:04 PM   #264
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ok, i apologize beforehand if this offends you in any way, but some things are really bugging me.

why would god not let some of his children into heaven just because they didnt believe her? will she just say 'they shouldve known better'? where is forgiveness? where is the love?

so i should go to hell cause i dont believe in jesus? how bout a baby? god forbid, if a baby dies before she is baptized, she goes to a void? not into heaven? why? where is the justice in that? how bout the people who lived before jesus? did they all go to hell?
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Old 12-22-2004, 01:52 PM   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
why would god not let some of his children into heaven just because they didnt believe her? will she just say 'they shouldve known better'? where is forgiveness? where is the love?

so i should go to hell cause i dont believe in jesus? how bout a baby? god forbid, if a baby dies before she is baptized, she goes to a void? not into heaven? why? where is the justice in that? how bout the people who lived before jesus? did they all go to hell?
First off, a disclaimer: I haven't read any of this thread but this last page, so I apologize ahead of time if I'm repeating information, or straying from the intent of this thread.

a_i_w, those are great questions, and they definitely should bug you. I do think they are questions that christianity and the bible at least try to address. Whether you believe these answers are true or not is an entirely different thing, but I don't think that Christianity just ignores your questions. I'd encourage you to investigate how the bible answers your questions.

I'll comment briefly on "why would god not let some of his children into heaven just because they didnt believe her?"

First off, this is a really good, and theologically tough question. One perspective that I've heard put out there is that it would be hell for someone to spend eternity with God (heaven), if they've made it clear through their life that they don't like, trust, or submit to God. This perspective would say that hell is just a matter of taking someone's choice during their life on earth ("I don't want to be with God and thus have to follow God's rules" and making that choice permanent (eternal separation from God is one biblical definition of hell). This perspective would say that God is giving people what they've chosen, rather than forcing them into something they despise (being in God's presence).

I don't know if you buy it or not, but that's one view.

Really, I think Jesus intended his teaching to be about way more than just what happens when you die. He talked much more about what happens in your life than where you end up. Christianity seems to focus so much on Heaven and Hell and that's it, when I think Jesus was about a lot more than just that.

Anyway, keeping asking the questions that bug you and look for the answers.

-Spiral
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Old 12-22-2004, 02:04 PM   #266
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Indra,

My post was not to spite you.

I believe christianity today is in bad shape, an industry with its own pop stars, celebrities, a multi-million dollar industry. I REFUSE to listen to bands that label themselves as "Christians only".... Thank god for U2.-

Like I said it, I find it ironic that we are here discussing this on a U2 message forum. Whether you take that personally or not, is out of my hands. Surely isnt intended to spite.

Cheers,

Mark
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Old 12-22-2004, 02:09 PM   #267
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the irony you seem to find sounds as if it stems from the fact that atheist U2 fans are, somehow, ignorant of the loosey-goosey Christian message of some of bono's lyrics. i don't find irony, i find it wildly appropriate that spiritual matters -- and atheisim is surely about spirituality, the absence of it, and some of the most well-versed on religion are atheists -- are discusses on a U2 forum.

for me, an agnostic, a U2 concert gives me precisely the feeling that, i imagine, one would get in heaven, or whatever lies beyond. the contradictory feelings of being alone yet together, singing songs that you've internalized and made unique along with 50,000 others who've done the same, collective and individual, flesh and spirit, feeling so insignificant yet so special to be a part of something so large. that such things can be achieved here on earth ... that's all i need to get me through the night. who needs God when you've heard "streets" in New York?
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:04 PM   #268
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Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

My point was simply that it seems to me that to say that you believe in God and then not to find out who or what that god is, seems lacking in any real meaning. .
I think you described a huge chunk of Australia. I know more Spiritualists than I do Christians. I dont know that they would agree with you about the "lacking in any real meaning"
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:13 PM   #269
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The bible is the most remarkable book in history.
I disagree. There is an ancient book of Chinese medicine. I forget how old, the name of it, etc. Scientists are currently plowing through it bit by bit and are finding answers and/or assistance to answers to medical problems. I find this to be the most remarkable book.
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:18 PM   #270
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i'd say Hamlet. followed by _Ulyssess_. then maybe _Gravity's Rainbow_. all are higher texts.
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