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Old 12-21-2004, 11:38 PM   #241
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true that. that points out a mis-writing in that sentence. please minus the 'not' in my previous reply i hate editing so i wont. you all just have to work it out lol
"if you are a yank.."

ok, my spleen and i are leaving this thread now.
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:56 PM   #242
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Quote:
Originally posted by swissair135


Every U2 song has a bible quote or has been directly influenced by the bible. Its a clear message, with some subtle attributes.
This may be a stretch, don't you think.
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Old 12-21-2004, 11:59 PM   #243
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This is sidetracking but I feel like talking so you will all cop it.

*starts longwinded story here*

I befriended Dalkey Beach. I thought he was a nice bloke. Polite, charming, yes, a nice internet friend he was.

I thought. Until he turned into "Edge". I was a bit annoyed but thought, ok, Edge, this is odd but fun.

Twas all a lie.

In the final death throws of that saga I became quite bitter. I wrote a poem about my disillusionment (sp?) and posted it to another U2 site. Not a very good poem. The only thing going for it really was that it rhymed but writing, and posting it, did calm my nerves.

Anyhow, not long after I posted, I received an email from a Christian band wanting to set my poem to music. I was both horrified and flattered. For many reasons. I didn't mention to the Christian musician that I was atheist (nor what the poem was about). I figured if hes getting something out of my pain then something good came of all that fake Edge crap.

My point - beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The writers intentions are not always the same as what the listeners interprets.

And as long as everyones enjoying themselves, who cares.

/end of irrelevance
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:19 AM   #244
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Okay then, is Islam a true faith that follows God?
Just wondering who this was being asked of?
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:31 AM   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Well isn't this just fucking hilarious.
Agnostics beliefs are inane.
People who like U2 and are athiest are hypocrites.

Fucking hilarious.

And they say Christians are persecuted and offended too often. My arse. Talk a mile long walk in someone else's shoes.

Or 1.6 kms if you're not a yank.

Angela, I'm asuming the "agnostics beliefs are inane" comment was directed toward me. Just to clear things up here; My comments were not directed toward an agnostic, but someone who said they believed in God. My point was simply that it seems to me that to say that you believe in God and then not to find out who or what that god is, seems lacking in any real meaning. It was not intended to be disrespectful, and I think it is patently obvious to a fair observer that I have shown only respect to those with a contrary position to mine.

I've also just defended the right of atheist U2 fans to post here in my last message. So please don't lump me in with the insensitive remarks of someone else claiming to be a christian.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:40 AM   #246
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It was directed at you to give context, do you believe that Islam is a faith from God - I most certainly do not and my reasoning is no different than that of why I dont believe in Jesus.
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Old 12-22-2004, 04:54 AM   #247
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It was directed at you to give context, do you believe that Islam is a faith from God - I most certainly do not and my reasoning is no different than that of why I dont believe in Jesus.
But how could your reasoning be the same- you are talking about 2 completely different things. Before you gave me some well reasoned arguements for why you don't accept Jesus' claims to divintity, to which I answered and tried to explain to you how I come to a different conclussion (incidently you haven't really replied to this ).

The only real things that islam has in common with chrisitianity is the concept of monotheism and some claims to the judeo historical narative. Mohammed claimed he was a new prophet with a new/different message. Islamic religion has the seven pillars as it's core belief system- it has no claim to a divine physical intervention into history, and therefore no falsifiable test. Most unlike Christianity as I've said.

Unless you are saying that you just choose not to accept anything that has a belief God, even if there is proof. And I guess it is redundent to say so now, but no I don't believe Islam is a faith from God.
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Old 12-22-2004, 05:08 AM   #248
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Sorry. Really. I was very hot and tired and annoyed and had the remains of a huge headache when I wrote that. I shouldn't have sounded as I did. I dont think it really bothered me as much as it sounded, and you certainly didn't cause it.

But...I am one of those who believe in *a* god, and I guess I am struggling to understand how it can be viewed as only making half the journey. I know this might not be what you are implying, but from your post above and the one wher you addressed the other person (I cant recall who it was now) it seemed as though you are wanting to know how it works as it seems to you to lack meaning? You've been nothing but polite, and I dont mean to criticise you at all, but something about that is irking me, and only slightly, so the response you quoted, of me, was out of line and I do apologise. Still, I've no doubt you do respect those with other views, and my thinking that to say there is a lack of meaning in views such as mine or the other person's is not so much respectful is nothing more than a differing of opinion. Am I going in circles again? Hey, its after 11pm! On time and all I am

So anyway. Time for a quick ramble as my pepsi max kicks in lucky you lot eh!
Overall I think many religious views are based so much on faith and belief, its a much more nontangible process in getting to where you are. I look at folk like beli and A_W and reckon there's has been a much more clinical process of elimination. And each has one similarity. Neither has been based on anything we know for sure. This is where I'm really not so disimilar, as an 'agnostic'. I am never going to be willing to believe the words of a book so old and so frequently interpreted that there are bound to be errors, and build up a faith on such a thing. The stories of Jesus and all those people is such folklore, even my mother and grandmother can tell me the same story about something from 30 years ago and both will have it slightly differently. 2000 years is a long time for changes. And it still remains just a book. Add onto that the numerous issues I have with the larger organised religions with hypocrisy, lack of love and compassion, cruelty, judgement, condemnation, lack of respect, hardarse blindedness and ignorance...No thanks. Over my godless little dead body if need be. I dont want a bar of it.

So as much as I can not join it, can I deny it either? Not really. I see something very phenomenal in this life, in everything around me. It is totally beyond mine or anyone's understanding that all this life can exist without some far more greater force having had it all happen. It might look like not completing the journey, but honestly, where would I go to find answers? I dont think they exist here on earth for us peons to know. Billions of people have passed threough this life so far and not one has ever found answers. I think the search for truth is fruitless. I believe whatever answers we might get will be waiting once this life has passed us.

The god I believe in might be the same god you do. Who knows. Certainly neither of us. But I cant forgo what bothers me, in the name of religion, for something which I dont feel is entirely necessary to do the *right* thing. Why must there be an already established religion to accompany my views? Can't I just cut out the middle man whom I've lost any chance of ever respecting? If the church changed so much that it became exactly what it boasts it is, then we can talk. I'll sign up, definitely. Well maybe. I dont know if I can believe that far, but this is moot as it probably wont happen.

I hope this has explained it a bit more.
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:05 AM   #249
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very true angela. established religions have very little to offer, they serve better as a reason to divide us and make us hate each other. now who needs that
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:18 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem
Sorry. Really. I was very hot and tired and annoyed and had the remains of a huge headache when I wrote that. I shouldn't have sounded as I did. I dont think it really bothered me as much as it sounded, and you certainly didn't cause it.I dont mean to criticise you at all, but something about that is irking me, and only slightly, so the response you quoted, of me, was out of line and I do apologise.
Hi Angela. Thanks heaps for your post! Apology accepted, and I know exactly what you mean about when it gets late- I should really be in bed now

Quote:
But...I am one of those who believe in *a* god, and I guess I am struggling to understand how it can be viewed as only making half the journey. I know this might not be what you are implying, but from your post above and the one wher you addressed the other person (I cant recall who it was now) it seemed as though you are wanting to know how it works as it seems to you to lack meaning?

I am never going to be willing to believe the words of a book so old and so frequently interpreted that there are bound to be errors, and build up a faith on such a thing. The stories of Jesus and all those people is such folklore, even my mother and grandmother can tell me the same story about something from 30 years ago and both will have it slightly differently. 2000 years is a long time for changes. And it still remains just a book.
I really get where you're coming from I think. I used to think the Bible was probably mainly a collection of fairy tales or full of inconsistancies or errors. That is until I actually researched it for myself. In case you didn't see my post from before where I tried to explain this in a logical fashion here it is:
Quote:

We'll the whole of Christian spirituality stands or falls on one particular historical event. Or more specifically on one particular person - Jesus. I'm sure I don't need to tell you that our evidence for Jesus is contained for the most part within the bible. Although not just within the bible, there are many extra-biblical accounts of the life, teaching and actions of this remarkable man. But there are a number of objections people tend to make about the bible, many of them before even having read it, let alone studied it's reliability.

Firstly people assume the message has been lost in the translation. The fact is that most bibles available today are taken directly from the original languages- Hebrew, Aramaic and Ancient Greek. Our knowledge of these languages is getting more and more precise which means that translations are actually getting more acurate.

The next objection some people raise is that it's been changed. In this arguement people claim that the scribes who copied and passed on the ancient bible documents decided to change the stories to suit themselves. But again this is just hopelessly ignorant. We have in our possesion hundreds of ancient copies of the gospel of mark (for example) found in many different places all over the ancient world. If it had been deliberately embelished there would be an abundance of ways to demonstrate this- I mean it's not like the Athenian scribe could fax his chnages through to his mates in Jerusalem, Rome and Corinth and get them to make the changes too. Of course there is also the issue of motive- scribes believed they were dealing with God's word- something sacred.

Others argue it contains accidental mistakes. The fact is mistakes were made, here's an example:
"They (Jesus and his disciples) went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes." (Mark 5:1) So what? The problem is, the various ancient copies (remember we've found heaps) differ on the spelling of this region. Some have it "Gardarenes" others "Gergesenes". Obviously some scribe somewhere stuffed up. As a result scholars now have to sift through the many ancient copies and work out which is the most likely spelling. Of course this is not the only 'mistake' in the ancient copies of the Bible but the others are only about as life-changing as this one.

I'm sorry if I am going over stuff you are already aware of but the reason for this brief biblical examination is so we can get to the crux of the issue. Sure you may say, the bible is a reliable account, but it's an account of some religious wackos who were trying to pass off a bunch of crap about a guy they decided to make a messiah. Maybe the bible is just a well preserved lie.

The first thing to remember is that the gospels are based on eye-witness accounts, two of them were written by men who personally knew or interviewed eye witnesses, the other two were men who travelled and worked with Jesus for over 3 years. The second thing to remember is many of the eye witnesses were either imprisoned or executed for proclaiming what they'd seen.

What caused these people to really believe they'd seen Jesus teach, heal, die and then rise again? There were hundreds who saw Jesus after the resurrection, many had been with him for over three years. Could it have been that they were all just seeing a very extended optical illusion? If they had simply made the whole thing up, why did they bother dying for a lie? It certainly wasn't for power, prestige or wealth- they were often despised and destitute. Even those who wern't killed for their claims, still had to endure family ridicule, loss of jobs and much persecution.

The authorities had every reason to want to discredit this zealous jewish sect (as they would have viewed it)- it posed a threat to their authority because Jesus had made claims about his deity and authority and this movement of early christians was making it's presence felt. Jesus' resurrection was falsifiable in that all the critics had to do was produce the body, but they did not.*
The bible is the most remarkable book in history. It has no real comparison. We have more fragments and whole ancient copies (and older copies) than any other historical document. And when I say more- let me give you a comparison. For the New Testament, there are over 24,000 handwritten copies or portions thereof from antiquity now in existance. This is far more than other ancient books. For example, the second most available ancient manuscripts are from Homer's Iliad, for which there are 643 manuscript copies, while most ancient documents have fewer than 25 existing copies.

The time interval between the actual events , the date of writing, and the earliest known manuscript copy is also important. For the Bible, manuscript copies or portions exist that were written within 35 to 160 years after the originals. Recent dating of one manuscript of a portion of the Gospel of Matthew (the so-called Magdalen text) suggests that it was written in about A.D. 50-a mere 17 years after the crucifixion of Christ.

The interval between the historical events and the written evidence is far better for the New Testament than any other ancient manuscript. For example, the first account of Buddha's life was written 700 years after his death. The earliest copy of Caesar's works is 950 years after being written, and the earliest available copy of Plato's works is dated 1250 years after the original. Yet we do not question the authority of these other works!

Even more impressive is the degree of textual variance in existing copies. Considering the enormous number of ancient New Testament manuscripts, there are only nominal differences in the various copies. The data for the New Testament is impressive. Only 40 lines, or one fifth of one per cent are in question. This compares to large textual variances in other ancient writings. For example, the New Testament is 25 times more accurately copied than the Iliad, which was also "sacred" and is considered one of the best copied works of antiquity.

Hope I'm not boring you, but I'm just trying to back up my claims with substance not just feelings. And you've mentioned your concept of the bible is one of your reasons for not accepting christian belief.

Quote:

Add onto that the numerous issues I have with the larger organised religions with hypocrisy, lack of love and compassion, cruelty, judgement, condemnation, lack of respect, hardarse blindedness and ignorance...No thanks. Over my godless little dead body if need be. I dont want a bar of it.
I'm with you on much of this. I reckon there's way too much of all this crap and more going on in churches. Problem is churches are filled with guess who- people like you and me. And unfortunately we're all capable of this kinda stuff. That's really one of the things the christian message addresses- what we can do about it all. It certainly doesn't mean christians have all these things conquered. Not that this excuses these behaviours. Fortunately I have found some real gems of christians too- people who really have demonstrated that God has made a difference in their lives.

I'd encourage you not to reject the message becuase the messengers mess up? Check it out on your own terms, then if you do decide to reject it, at least it is not some poor misrepresntation.
Quote:

So as much as I can not join it, can I deny it either? Not really. I see something very phenomenal in this life, in everything around me. It is totally beyond mine or anyone's understanding that all this life can exist without some far more greater force having had it all happen. It might look like not completing the journey, but honestly, where would I go to find answers?

That's what I see when I look at the world too. I hope pointed toward some way you can look for answers. I believe people have found answers to these questions, I know I have.

Quote:

The god I believe in might be the same god you do. Who knows. Certainly neither of us. But I cant forgo what bothers me, in the name of religion, for something which I dont feel is entirely necessary to do the *right* thing. Why must there be an already established religion to accompany my views? Can't I just cut out the middle man whom I've lost any chance of ever respecting? If the church changed so much that it became exactly what it boasts it is, then we can talk. I'll sign up, definitely. Well maybe. I dont know if I can believe that far, but this is moot as it probably wont happen.
I don't believe you need organised religion to examine these things. But there is enough evidence around to seek out the truth about the Bible/Jesus. Jesus never sought to start an organised religion, only the church. His intention for the church was to be a family/support. There are positive expressions of the church out there. It doesn't have to look a certain way or do things a certain way, or meet in a funny looking building- church for some is just a group of friends who share their faith. In fact I think this is also U2's idea of church. So maybe there is hope for you yet!
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:19 AM   #251
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oh and also, notaneasything, id probably pass out if i didnt say this.. who says those three books give us the real answers? for all i know they were written hundreds years ago. especially bible, it was decided by an election between the cardinals for gods sake! i think religions are a very good way to manipulate people into the dominant beliefs on morals, right or wrong and so. they are by no means a road map to the truth. id say we will not find the truth till the day we die, but believing should do it until then. i believe in a god, i just think the books he supposedly put out are full of wrongs and mistake, therefore inherently not his. would god make any mistakes, you think?

also i dont understand why islam is any less legitimate than christianity. they are both pretty dubious, especially considering the holy bible was not the original one, just another one of the hundreds of copies. the 1 copy cardinals of the time liked the most.

another thing.. why do men and women of religion have to be celibates? it doesnt make sense.. having a child, creation of another being is one of the holiest things i can think of. and god forbids his most loyal followers to do this? doesnt make sense. 'devotion to god' argument is inherently flawed, since if it is not gods will for people to have sex, why even make it the only way of reproduction? all religions have condemned sex as a bad, bad thing, and nudity as well, and today sex is not viewed as such a holy action. i wont even get started about the fact that all religious leaders in all religions are male. talk about gender equality. right.
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:20 AM   #252
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If 1 God is good, many Gods would be better
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:24 AM   #253
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very wise acrobat
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:34 AM   #254
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are you an atheist ?
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Old 12-22-2004, 06:40 AM   #255
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nope. i think there is a god and she has nothing to do with the religions on the planet right now. i think there has to be a god until someone could prove otherwise (atheist think its the other way around) but this doesnt mean any of the religions can show us the way. existence of a god.. it makes too much sense and fills so much of the emptiness that science has not yet been able to explain. and after all, what is science anyway? we are exploring what has already been taught in the nature. lessons are not in some book, they are everywhere
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