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Old 12-21-2004, 05:35 AM   #211
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I missed about 7 posts again,
but I take joy in appearing completely random anyway
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:41 AM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli


I am interested in evidence but I havent seen any evidence to prove that a creator exists.

I dont mean to be frustrating. I also have no idea what a "straw man" is. Im unfamiliar with this term. I just googled it and it looks like its a USA term. For the record I was raised in the outback with very little media. I still rarely watch the tv now. I do adore the internet though. So TV, movie references and USA English usually sink on me. Not that I want to stop you from using them. Just so you know where Im coming from.

I dismissed Jesus as a god.

Argggh, seriously this goes back to the kettles boiled argument. Different ways of thinking. Please dont jump to conclusions. I havent actually said a whole lot during this thread as Im enjoying listening to A Wanderer. This is quite possibly my most silent postings.
It's ok beli- I just find it difficult to have a sensible conversation when you sort of argue against something I never said (that is what a straw man is).
BTW I didn't think that term was just an american one, I've heard it heaps in Australia, maybe it's an East Coast thing or something.

I have been making an attempt to explain what evidence there is from a christian perspective and to encourage you to look at the evidence that is there for yourself. It's easy to say " there is no evidence therefore I won't believe it", when you haven't even checked out the sources for these claims (about Jesus being God).
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:42 AM   #213
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
I missed about 7 posts again,
but I take joy in appearing completely random anyway
I like hearing from you
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:44 AM   #214
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But those sources are not objective, they are an integral tool of belief - the miracles performed are extraordinary, so either they were an act of God or they were exaggerated/never happened and in the history of the world the latter is the the most likely.
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:51 AM   #215
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NotAnEasyThing,

Im not meaning to argue about things you never said. Whats the point in that? LOL . I think we are just two seriously different individuals.

I havent read the bible end to end and back again, no. The bible is a religious text. I prefer objective texts.

Its a shame we cant all meet on some tropical island and discuss this. It would be much easier / less frustrating.
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:52 AM   #216
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oops ignore the objective bit. A Wanderer just said that as I typed /swatted flys.
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Old 12-21-2004, 05:54 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But those sources are not objective, they are an integral tool of belief - the miracles performed are extraordinary, so either they were an act of God or they were exaggerated/never happened and in the history of the world the latter is the the most likely.
What eyewitness account is objective- but the long thesis I gave a few posts back about that exact issue was to explain that and to say there were many eyewitnesses, and over the centuries more scrutiny applied to these texts than anything else in history. And just because something is extraordinary is not in itself an arguement that it didn't happen - that reasoning is illogical. You still have the problem of the early believers. They certainly believed it, and they had an immediate way to check the validity of Jesus' claims. Why die for a hoax? Maybe one or two crazy people might do that- but thousands voluntarily go to the grave for no good reason?
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:00 AM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
NotAnEasyThing,

Im not meaning to argue about things you never said. Whats the point in that? LOL . I think we are just two seriously different individuals.

I havent read the bible end to end and back again, no. The bible is a religious text. I prefer objective texts.

Its a shame we cant all meet on some tropical island and discuss this. It would be much easier / less frustrating.
I guess we may be different, but in some ways I think we are very similar too- we both want to discover truth.

BTW, can you give me an example of a text that is objective.
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:02 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

Why die for a hoax? Maybe one or two crazy people might do that- but thousands voluntarily go to the grave for no good reason?
You think in a different direction to me.

For you it seems to be:

"Why would it be false?"

for me its:

"Prove it is true"

(Apologies if I have "strawed" you with that comment. Tis not my intention. Nor am I intending to put words in your mouth. Just thinking out aloud. )
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Old 12-21-2004, 06:09 AM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli


You think in a different direction to me.

For you it seems to be:

"Why would it be false?"

for me its:

"Prove it is true"

(Apologies if I have "strawed" you with that comment. Tis not my intention. Nor am I intending to put words in your mouth. Just thinking out aloud. )
No you most certainly haven't "strawed" me

It has not always been that way. Having investigated these things thoroughly for myself I now ask "how could it be false".

I just reckon that the "prove it true" position that you have is most likely reserved for only a few topics, christianity one of them. For most concepts of this magnitude that you have to engage with because they are out there in the marketplace, you probably take a more sympathetic approach to, looking for the facts for yourself. This is certainly the enquiring mind you have described in previous posts about yourself.
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Old 12-21-2004, 10:55 AM   #221
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frankly i dont practice any of the religions and for all i know they could all end up in the bottom of the sea.

however, if there is one thing i believe in, its that there is a god. i dont believe in a heaven or hell, i think we will all end up in the same place.

but really, believing, not in any particular religion, just believing in a force of good gives us the strength and the reason to keep moving and resist all the cruelty and evil we all face in our lifetimes.
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:15 PM   #222
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Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
frankly i dont practice any of the religions and for all i know they could all end up in the bottom of the sea.

however, if there is one thing i believe in, its that there is a god. i dont believe in a heaven or hell, i think we will all end up in the same place.

but really, believing, not in any particular religion, just believing in a force of good gives us the strength and the reason to keep moving and resist all the cruelty and evil we all face in our lifetimes.
Hi all_i_want, nice to have you join in.

But seriously, this seems to me a rather inane response. If you believe there is a god, why bother if you are not going to find out anything about this god. And I am interested in how this ambiguous belief gives you the strength and the reason to keep moving and resist all the cruelty and evil we face in our lifetime.

For instance; if this god is just a god who just "turned the igniton key on" and then abandoned his creation- what comfort is that?

Don't get me wrong, I believe there is a God, just find your approach as lazy as those atheists who just adopt an atheist position as a reaction against annoying Christians they know.

Sorry if that seems a bit harsh- just would appreciate more depth in this thread.
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Old 12-21-2004, 03:22 PM   #223
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Okay then, is Islam a true faith that follows God?
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:01 PM   #224
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ok, so here it is. btw, i apoplogize for everytime i call god a 'he' cause i believe god doesnt necessarily have to be one. anyway, all the religions, id guess, started with some kind of divine intervention. then, over the centuries, they became the religions they are today. all predominantly male, for some reason, and full of 'threats' against the 'non-believers' and the very concept i disagree the most, 'hell'. both in islam and christianity, hell was used by the clergy to bully people into doing things.

lets take hitler for example (he's more or less my fave example to explain this) did he go to hell? more or less every religion would say 'hell, yeah!' but really, what did he do wrong? did he do anything contrary to god's will? who on earth could do something contrary to GOD'S will? i know, freedom of choice, youd say. well, where is the freedom if you know youd do something and not what is prescribed? if its gods will to give its subjects the freedom of choice, it is not his choice to forever damn the souls of the ones who dont make the choice god would like.
'do this, or go to hell' i dont really have much of a choice do i?

thats only one problem i have with religions. dont even get me started on the needy, egomaniac god model they present to us. 'you have kneel before me five times a day' or 'you have to visit church every sunday'. the god i believe is not the kind that constantly 'needs' things from his subjects.

so where is my god? every time you help someone, do something kind towards another being, raise a child or look after your old and slowy fading parents, fall in love, make someone believe that goodness still exists in this world... that high, that ecstacy you get.. now there is god. there is something inherently right about that, that's true. thats tangible.
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Old 12-21-2004, 04:03 PM   #225
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also, i think christianity and islam today dont promote love and peace anymore. they promote fear, fear of going to hell, and they promote ignorance and disrespect towards the beliefs of others. if everyone is gonna keep believing them, thats fine. i know i wont be.
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